Topic: Gods in Shadow World

[Walt]

In our history, no matter what time, a great many people believed in their Gods. In their minds, Their God was in everything. He/She/It was everywhere. Many still feel the same way today. Unlike me, these people had/have no doubts in their God. They fear/love/grovel at their god, same as the Shadow Worlds. Egyptians, Greeks, Israelites and the Summarians practised a magic directly related to their Gods. In my games I am more Greek then Middle Ages with the Gods, communication is more Oracle (deep meditation with the human/elf/being trying to deal with the power of their Gods contact, the message often gets garbled) then a Priest asking a god and getting an answer. 

Faith in the Shadow World and Earth is exactly the same. People believe in their God, see the every day Miracles of their God. Just because you can't prove Earths God's existence does change a persons faith. A Shadow World Fanatic is just as Fanatical as one of Earths. A Roman that daily honoured his God was just as faithful as any of the Shadow World Faithful. Just because a Roman/Greek Priest didn't have the power that a Shadow World Priest does, does not diminish their power. Their word was Power, their people value them. The only difference is that One was Real, and another is a Fantasy. And the Fantasy gets unique Power from their God. Even when the faithful get angry they question things, especially when they know the Gods have the power to save a life.

No - damning 'god-like' beings that daily demonstrate their power through the spells they have given their followers is *not* an Earth thing, it is a Kulthea thing.
Yes, damning beings which no one can prove they exist (i.e. beings who no one can show routinely, repeatedly demonstrate their existence through obvious, repeatable powers granted to their followers) *is* an Earth thing.

Here again I feel you are taking an Earth-centric view of Kulthea.
Earth - no gods that daily demonstrate power in a way that cannot be denied
Kulthea - gods that daily demonstrate power in a way that cannot be denied

It is my understanding that, on Kulthea, there are followers of the various gods every where.
This is an aspect Earth & Kulthea share.
The vast majority of humanity on Earth claim to follow some religion or like teachings.
How could it be any less on Kulthea where the gods routinely demonstrate their powers by giving their followers powers which can be repeatedly and consistently used (and not denied)?

Similarly, it is my understanding that, on Kulthea, it is very easy to find people who are single digit levels i.e. 1st through 9th level people are quite common) and it is only levels above that (i.e. double digits) that are more uncommon/rare.
Another aspect Earth & Kulthea share.

As such, in every city, every town, every village, in almost all places, one finds (usually more than one) follower that channels power from their god.


In my opinion, because the gods know what happens when they clash directly, the gods grants powers to their followers and allow their followers to 'fight it out'.
That is, the gods have some unwritten 'no direct interference' rules which they [generally] follow but bend from time to time.
Yes, they all grant their followers powers.
Yes, they all allow their followers to use their powers against each other.
Yes, they try to refrain from directly interfering, or from indirectly participating on a large scale.
And yes, when one of their kind 'escalates' things, the others debate 'just how much do we want to continue the escalation' and then take action based upon what they decide.
And yes, that means that, once in a great long while, one (or more) of them breaks all those unwritten rules and shows up directly - which usually results in others doing the same (and thus we have, during the Wars of Dominion, the gods of Orhan and the gods of Charon - and probably others - being directly involved and even directly fighting each other*).


And one last comment on education:
Remember, for most of recorded history on Earth, education was the purview of religions; i.e. for most of humanity's existence on Earth, organized education was an aspect of the various churches (and still is in many places).
I suspect the same holds true for Kulthea - that the majority of formal education came via the religious organizations and it would be the exception to the rule of a secular school (although, in Third Era c.6050, there are many places where one can get a religious-light or even religious-free education).

[Walt]

Gods in Kulthea -and the most Fantasy Worlds I know- are a rather spongy topic.
Do I understand correct, that in both of your comments you are speaking about the Orhan resp Charon gods? Often I was wondering where all the Gods went which would have been on Kulthea before this 2 groups came into play...

@Don: because it sounds like you integrated faith quite heavily into your campaign: who is the relationship between the Loremasters and your Priest? What happens for example if one High Priest of Kuor presents this guy to be the rightful ruler, and the Loremasters another one? Or does this simply never happens in your world?

[DonMoody]

Who is the relationship between the Loremasters and your Priest?
What happens for example if one High Priest of Kuor presents this guy to be the rightful ruler, and the Loremasters another one?
Or does this simply never happens in your world?

IIRC, the line of succession for the Rhakhaan Empire is well detailed in the time line.

So no, I've never encountered that problem.
The closest events to that have been the current civil war, and that really doesn't fit in the 'priest of this god say that claimant, loremasters say other claimant' concept.

DonMoody

[Elrik]

Since the Primary Religion of "Jaiman" is the Church of Orhan, they would follow succession. They have the same flow chart that the Loremasters have.

I would suspect that most other religions would be ignored. 

In the end Frelix's only claim to the throne was the Helm and his passion for Royal Pastry.

 

[munchy]

We never got round to use that unified church of Rhakhaan or Orhan. We usually have a lot of temples and orders around that most of the time exist peacefully next to one another in centres of civilisations. Things change when only one order is present at a given place, they usually tend to take more power and a more aggressive policy in those places. We always liked cities like Sel-Kai or Lethys with their avenues of the gods, giving the whole issue a rather modern or antique in the sense of Greek view on the matter: lots of gods for lots of different things, so not much rivalry here - at least not in the open.

[Walt]

...in the sense of Greek view on the matter...

That?s how I position the Gods: it?s unimportant if Orhan or Charon-if you want to live, only don?t get in the way of the gods!

[Elrik]

One of my players start a Church of the Rihand - or Right Hand.

It was a place of self contemplation, where men and women could self explore in privacy. If you want some company while you explored, you could drop a copper in and coin slot and a slide would open revealing a screen and a lovely lady or man on the other side.

Took off in Sel-Kay.

[Elrik]

i very much like the Greek angle of things. You can ask a question, a pretty girl gets stoned off a strange river weed and recites what comes to her drug fevered brain.

Then somehow, the players have to figure it out. When the Gods do come it is in secret.

I once had a player take a young boy under his wing and taught the boy to fight. A (very) loose sort of friendship developed between Cay and the PC. The player started doing things just for Cay, turned out to be a great Paladin. Eventually became a Priest and died fighting Lugroki while trying to save a group of kidnapped children. When the party had the funeral, the young boy that the PC first helped showed up. They did try to raise him, but it was his time.

[Elrik]

Here is something I don't see to much talk about.

Because we are humans in our day to day lives, most of my parties tend to play elves or some screwed up race... Half Lugroki... there is a bit of awesome.

Ancestor Worship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestor_worship
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/a/ancestor_worship.html
http://www.religionfacts.com/chinese_religion/practices/ancestor_worship.htm

Elrik's Take...
We tend to focus on the God's, but at least in my games, elves are participants in Ancestor worship. Each group or Family has a set of rituals, sometimes even have sacred locations, each location is a mix of a their ancestors favoured objects. Sacred plants and more. Rarely are these holy places inside. Even when Elves have a Orhan or Charon Faith, they tend to maintain their Ancestor Worship. Although Charon may not be as understanding in it's view of a shared faith. Characters that follow an Arnak order but are unaware of it's source are discouraged from the Ancestor Worship. Once the player becomes a servant of the Unlife, it really doesn't matter, as their character sheet is added to my very large stack of fallen PC's.

Many of the groups or families rituals cross over, many having a similar source. Many times when an elf decides to leave the group/family they are given a sacred item, a medallion, head dress, some sort of item that is easy to carry. Many times, if this item is stolen the elves will travel to the ends of the World to regain them. Sometimes I will encourage the elves to use these sacred items as a focus when they are meditating. This gives me an opportunity to sent dreams, nightmares, glimpses of possible futures and visions of the past. All of these visions would be related to an ancestor. On very rare occasions, I have used this method to deliver messages from Orhan, disguised as an ancestor. It could be Charon as well.

In rare instances, I will let the sacred items gain a certain level of magic, I will consider the last several users before the items end up with a PC, the source is usually channelling. I will have some minor powers, +5 to a skill, but not a category. +5 vs Undead or Creatures of Evil or very rarely the Unlife. Older items may allow spells, have +10 to a skill or a +5 to a category. Other items could come with multipliers to a specific realm (never Arcane). Elder realms could offer defence bonuses, more spells and a bit of a mix of powers. One family had a rare item, a pair of braces that provided a AR: 14 (+25). I normally try to keep them pretty mainstream and not overly powerful. One thing all the items have is a +10 to RR vs Magic/Possession/Poison(but not arcane).

This does not smack of materialism, they are rare items. Items carried for decades or even centuries by heroes, family members, administrators, priests of actual religions, and spell casters. Over time these items take on a life of their own. Sometimes they are evil, and can taint a shrine. Then an Elder Animist/Priest/Shaman is called in to sanctify the shrine and let the ancestors return to peace. Most of my ancestors are in urns, so undead are rare. Although I have dumped in a shade or some ghosts. An extremely old Shrine could have some elementals, or powerful spirits appear.

An elf will not just open up a new shrine, although they may have small alters where they will meditate, study and maybe burn candles, incense and have simple things to honour their Family. When a new shrine is started, a Elder of some sort is requested and and a safe place is sanctified. Although not always, but usually a Family member who recently died is placed into the Mound, behind or under the shrine. They become the guardian, and the cycle starts anew. In my game the Guardians can have power, far from Undead, they are the Core of the Elfs Passion for life and Family. These guards can have some small interaction in the world. On occasions they will do their best to defend a shrine. Very ancient shrines may have multiple guardians. 

My current Elven party members:
Von - Erlin - Ranger - Hair band: made of a thick platinum ring +5 to Hunting
Durlin - Erlin/Dyar - Fighter - Ring +5 to Primary weapon OB

Upon getting these items, a pledge is made to have them returned. In the past I have had families not give items right away, the family leader or an elder will call members home so they can receive an item, they have the item for the duration of their adventuring or life. On rare occasions other elves or even party members/friends will return an item on behalf of a fallen elf. I even had an entire adventure around the return of an item to the 1000 Dawns.

The shrines could be family burial mounds, with a small entrance where remains are put, items are placed. One character had an Honour Shack. A small house with several shelves. All the items where there for display. Behind the shack was a family mound.

Thanks for opening this list up Walt.
I am often surprised what I do by instinct. Things that I just do in a game, and then when I try to write them down, I have nothing. I am slowly going through about 6 boxes of notes, NPC's, characters and ideas... wow... I am old - LOL

[Elrik]

Since I started this...

Quick notes: The first thing is, not all elves did this. Some held this as a formality or even tradition. Erlini saw this as an important link with their past and the bonds to the earth. As you get into a more sophisticated social group the community shrines are replaced by Temples or completely abandoned. When you come to a remote Erlini tribe, the shrine will be at the hart of the community, where criminals are tried, prisoners presented and ancient rites are done.

Ancestor Worship: Shrines

Village/Community Shrine:
These open air shrines are a focal point for communities. Sometimes acting as a community "hall", villagers gather to discuss matters of concern, announce births and deaths, and on a few occasions, rang in a new year, season or activity like a Festival, noted visiting bard ect. The shrine is a location where villagers can also go and thank all the ancestors who participated, lived and died for the village. Minor sacred items and heirlooms will decorate the location, nothing of true value will be set there, for fear of temptation that could anger the ancients. Regular sacrifices are made, usually a bowl of nuts or berries, a tankard of mead or beer or even a cup of wine. Money is never placed there, again to curb temptation. If the village has a guardian, this is where it resides or at least people talk to it.

The shrine is usually made up of natural materials, be it inside the heart of a old growth, the edge of a hero's mound or a pile of rocks built into some make shift frame. They are usually decorated with flowers, colourful fabrics, bronze and copper items (to represent the earth) and have a small tree to represent the forest.

Volunteers usually help to maintain these shrines. There is a ritual of cleaning that must be performed every four days. Rotting food is not considered a Ancestor pleaser.

Family Shrine
Very common among all elves, this is the place where families honour their own past and the people that made their future possible. This shrine will have items of personal value, with gold and gems present. From this collection are items given to elves that leave the fold, hopefully to be brought back one day. These shrines can look like just about anything, although a tradition of keeping it on the earth among the trees is encouraged, elves that live in cities keep the shrine in a secure location in their home. Larger familes will have a decorated shed like structure that can be entered and meditated upon. Some of the more Worldly elves may have a 'tomb' built so that family members can enter and sit, in an oval or circle while one wall is dedicated to the ancestors. Soft pillows are provied to sit on.

The oldest female elves of a household maintain the shrines, teaching the next oldest the ritual of cleaning. Women are selected as they are the Line that bares children, so it is considered only right that they the ones that clean the Shrines. In most elven cultures this is considered an honour and not a annoying duty. It is not unheard of that some of the older elves carry on conversations with the "shrine", it could very well be answering back. Although not publicized, males are also taught the cleaning ritual.

The family guardian is usually Hero, or a creature that the family feels represent them best. It is rare that these creatures have any validity. Very ancient families claim that their Guardian can take form in times of need.

Private Shrine
These are very rare. Sometimes an elf moves to a city and takes a small bit of the Family Shrine with them. All above rules apply, yet they lack the sacred items, although a young elf may find something of value and offer it to the Ancestors. This is a formality, and unless the item has great power, this is only done to help build an elf's shrine. In recent years elves citified elves have competed to build up their shrines, producing some rather gaudy monstrosities with a endless cache of silly items. Rarely do the ancestors take up residence in these obvious displays of materialism.

Portable Shrines
Similar to the Private shrine, this small bit of a larger shrine is for an elf who is wondering the wilderness, who wishes to worship to do so. These are usually larger items them the sacred items but easy enough to break down and pack up with much effort or time. Sometimes an old board with 3 indents to place a candle, incense and the sacred item given to a young elf.


For an example of dogma. One of my players was asking questions so i ended up writing a short story. The jist of it was this: young elven girl, in her mid 20's, came to the shrine one day after it had been cleaned. She was enraged, how could the ancestors enjoy her berries if they where constantly moved. She confronts the elder woman who was just finishing up and slaps the old woman. The woman stairs at the child and returns to her work. The spoiled child demands to know why her sacrifice was removed. The Old woman turned to her and ask, "Would you tolerate a Spoiled berry?", the young girl said "Of course not!", The old woman finished with "Then why do you expect the ancestors to tolerate them?"

My Player never go it, but his girlfriend started calling him Spoiled Berry. For all I know he still doesn't get it.

[Walt]

Thanks Elric, now I have something new to muse on. I like your concept, and it falls in quite handy.
I personnally don?t like the well ordered religions of fantasy games, this set-up of everybody of this and that god has the same concept and agenda. So my religions break down in different sub-groups, cults, etc, even working sometimes against each other (interchurch politics involved)
And lately I happend to place an Iloura shrine next to the Remiraith, the priestess in former time being the second in the hierarchy of the Iloura church in Jaiman, and nobody knows why she left the power struggles. I went more with this npc in the time before iloura, that there?s been some other, "pure" earth goddess (earth essaence?) And I will integrate your ancestor worship, this fits!

[RandalThor]

One of my players start a Church of the Rihand - or Right Hand.

It was a place of self contemplation, where men and women could self explore in privacy. If you want some company while you explored, you could drop a copper in and coin slot and a slide would open revealing a screen and a lovely lady or man on the other side.

Took off in Sel-Kay.

OK, so it took me twice reading it through to get it.....

Have a laugh point.

[Elrik]

LOL Thanks Randalthor

[egdcltd]

I personnally don?t like the well ordered religions of fantasy games, this set-up of everybody of this and that god has the same concept and agenda. So my religions break down in different sub-groups, cults, etc, even working sometimes against each other (interchurch politics involved)

I think the reason fantasy religions are so well ordered is due to the more visible effects of the gods. It's a bit harder to break away from the established church if the god doesn't approve, stops all your spells from working, and tells all his worshippers you're an apostate.

[Elrik]

walt and egdcltd... I think you two are both right...

One of the most tedious things about D&D is the Spheres and their Rights. Each God has a balanced opposite and the players get the selection of what 40 gods and numerous variation.

Orhan, Charon and the Local gods are as messy as you want. Just because each got has a function, doesn't mean they are stuck to the role. Oriana is the Sun Goddess to the Kytarri.

Has anyone built on to the Pantheon?

[Walt]

At least in Xa?ar Terry happens to make the turn a round and he presented with the "Order of the Elder" an interesting cult of Iloura, mixing it even with Reann.
If every GM would present his ideas of Iloura, you would have enough material for a lot of internal religious conflicts. And I expect that Iloura as goddness would accept all interpretations of her.
On comflicts like this I very liked "The Primal Order" of Wizards of the Coast published in the early 90s. Best supplement I know (next to Gods of Harn) to get a feeling for different aspects of religions and their stive against each other

[Elrik]

Yea there truth in what you are saying Walt. In Jaiman there are not that may Religious confrontations. But since my conversation with Don, I have realized that is my fault. I plan to throw some messy stuff into the mix tomorrow night. At the moment my PC's are in Tanara looking for swords, but there are a great number of bad things that I will do to them.

[Walt]

Hmm, I?m wondering: we created an exchange system for different campaigns in Jaiman. The basic idea is, that the different campaigns can influence each other. This gives a richer backround, even if it?s more difficult to organize. If you?re interested in joining give me an e-mail

[Elrik]

LOL I still do that. My party is about to discover that the firesword is not in it's tomb anymore and the wind sword got lost at sea. The ice sword actually got put back when the party was done with it.

The Phoenix sword is laying on the ground a two days march from the Esov Turic in a dense patch of forest. The Lugroki that overwhelmed the party couldn't touch the thing and it has disabled it's magic to hide itself, but it sensed the new pcs (when they where near by) and is waiting for them to return. It is not aware that they are not of this Kingdom, but in it's distant mind, maybe they can help it since they are a Good aligned party.

I still have an old party quietly watching the new party. Every so often I will throw an email to the old players and get their input.

I will email you right after lunch... my mommy and daddy invited me out! LOL and here I thought they tried to disown me... wait... ugggg

[Elrik]

I thought I would throw out some of my religious orders and sub groups. I don't think I have used these groups in a decade.

Children of the Conclave:
Status: Active
An administrative body for the Church of Orhan. They deal with financial issues, payroll, day to day needs, and construction needs/expansion. Although paper pushers by training, the  Children are also a think tank, collecting massive amounts of information, processing said information and allowing them to plot out any future efforts. They also assign funds for priests to wonder the country, as well as process donations. They have offices in all major centres where the Church of Orhan is present.


Cult of Hurm
Status: Active, denounced by the church
A military body of Knights, Squires and warriors. They research, study and collect vast sums of knowledge, storing the information in a hidden tower, located somewhere in the south east of Jaiman, but not in Tanara. Many of them seek knowledge simply for the sake of knowledge. Many of them have become Essence users, a few channellers. They are devout followers of Ohran, some dangerous in the faith, others Worldly and open minded. A few even hold that the Lords of Orhan are not Gods to be worshipped, but instead creatures of great power, that should be admired but not worshipped. It was this heretical view that got the Order denounced and proclaimed a cult. Many of the members did not agree with the few that held that the Gods where not Gods, they still supported them and suffered the same decree. Now the Cult wonders in secret, investigating rumours, collecting and cataloguing information. They avoid confrontation with the Church, and many other smaller sects that follow Orhan. They will challenge Priests and Military bodies of Charon as well as the Priests Arnak, but most do not realize what the Unlife is. Sometimes they will even pursue corruption within the Church. In the last few years there have been some very public, and very brutal confrontation.

Urcurac Shry
Status: Active
This Mystical society has no association with the Church of Orhan, and resent any such statement. They feel that the Lords of Orhan have given the Flows to the People so that they can strive to touch Divinity. Members peruse magic with a dangerous zest, many falling to the dark ways. There have been several purges of seriously corrupt members over the last thousand years. Manipulation of the Undead is considered an affront to Iloura as well as Eissa. They follow a Religious hierarchy, not the normal Magic Guild. The order denies powers provided from any source other then the Essence. Any Channellers, mentalists, even Priests of the Unlife are sneered at and considered dirty and foolish. After all, the Gods have given us the Essence, why do you need anything else. This group would be considered ruthless in their efforts and will destroy those that they can't sidestep.