Topic: So what I'm evil?

[thrud]

I'd like to hear your take on this matter.
First of all, what is evil?
We all know unlife is the real bad guy in shadow world. The uncreation of life as we know it and so on...
But evil as in following a dark god doesn't necessarily make you a horrible person, or does it?
I mean really, what is evil?
I would claim that evil is mainly putting your self first and caring not so much for the rest. If so you're difinately playable and will function quite well within society. You can even go on heroic quests and become loved by the people, but you do this to meet your own ends not because of some lofty ideas or altruistic notions.
However crulty and random act of violence and destruction will not go well with society. And this will make the pc unplayable fairly quickly. Once you start torturing the prisoners for fun you're on a slippery slope so to speak.

So what's your take on this? Is evil really that bad?
I'd say good or evil doesn't really matter as long as you all fight against the unlife?

[dutch206]

I believe we've already had this discussion once, but I'm not sure whether it is still in the archives or not.

The quick answer:  depends on what your definiton of "evil" is.

Is "evil" selfish, greedy, and egotistical?  Some say yes, others no.

Is 'evil' Ted Bundy, the Hillside strangler, and John Gacy?  Some say yes, others say their actions were the result of mental illness.

Everyone agrees that worshipping demons and drinking blood is evil, but the hard part is defining the gray areas.

[egdcltd]

I think a fair bit was covered in this thread: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=5010.0

[Elrik]

Hey thrud,

If you haven't already, have a good look around. This part of the list is pretty much all gold. Have a good look around.

I haven't really looked around the rest of the Forum. 

[Dax]

I would claim that evil is mainly putting your self first and caring not so much for the rest.

This reminds me of a funny comment:

"The whole world is egoistic; everyone cares for himself, every one but me, I and only I care for myself".

"putting yourself first" isn't evil it's just selfish, nothing more.

"Drinking blood" - it depent where does the blood comes from ...

I believe to damage human's dignity is evil.
So torture, killing and abuse is evil.

And even if someone is mental ill, his action might be evil, but not the person per se.

Back to Shadow World: Unlife is evil, not to fight it also (or stupid).
There is this famous quote (surely bad translated)
"For the victory of evil it is enough that the normal people do nothing"

[markc]

 I have also hear that quote but as "For evil to be victorous all good people have to do is nothing." Now for the person who says that or is trying to push a message with the concept of "evil" is the real question.
 Like Dax said above in the blood drinking statment; thier is a genetic disease in which a person generates too much blood for thier system. IN that case taking thier blood and drinking it does not harm the person at all but infact improves thier life span.

 For divine biengs evil would  be the thing opposite there ideals. For a forest god cities everywhere might be evil and vice versa. The list goes on from there. but I do think it is a very good idea to try and provide a player with some good outlines about just what thier diety expects of his followers. I also think that it can be too much info in an introductary book and may need a player religon book sort of like the channeling companion but dedicated to the game worlds religons and dieties. Maybe a PDF so the price point is at a reasonable level or allow the buyer to buy parts of the guide and not the whole thing.

MDC

[mocking bird]

For divine biengs evil would  be the thing opposite there ideals. For a forest god cities everywhere might be evil and vice versa.
MDC

I would disagree on that.  Inconvenience or contrairy to ones beliefs does not make it evil.  For example a mountain god and a sea god might be at odds with each other but does that make the mountain god see the sea god as evil?  Enemies probably but not evil.  Actually the channeling companion makes a nice distinction between the two.

but I do think it is a very good idea to try and provide a player with some good outlines about just what thier diety expects of his followers.
MDC

I as well before the GM accuses the player of not being a good follower and the player then accuses the GM of not being a good deity.  As hinted at elsewhere, specific dogma and the concept heresy are actually fairly recent devices.  Before things were more 'generic' and you didn't necessarily have a homogeneous religious organization outside a specific city.

[markc]

MB,
[None SW comment]
 I tend to agree about your concepts of Evil but IMO the detect Evil spell might/would detect oppositely aligned followers. I will go back and take a look at the Chan Comp as it has been too long since I had my noes it in. [I have been playing another game system since I moved here and it is starting to kill me that I am not playing RM. I just may have to drop a game a start my own.]

[SW comment]
 From my limited SW knowledge I bow down to others and there comments about canon material and spell effects.

[I think I said this way back when to reply to your comment above but there goes]
 Should there be another spell or use for detect evil? To detect non followers of the god? Or to detect and show to the caster that these people believe in the same things you do? [Maybe a colored aura appears around people while the spell is active and the color give information to the caster]

 I have been playing another game for quite some time and I am starting to think in terms of those spells. No it is not 4th ed. so please do not throw any bricks my way.

MDC   

[RandalThor]

I think the easiest definition of evil is:

You hurt others because it you enjoy it. Not because you are going to get some money or other material gain, but because inside you there is a "thing" that wants to hurt others. Yes, by modern definition that could be construed as a mental illness, but we aren't talking about the modern world. (Are we?)

If you want to go the psychological route then generally there is no such thing as good and evil - there are just varying degrees of mental illnesses. In a fantasy game (again, that is what we are talking about, right?) you would have it much simplier: if someone does something harmful for little* to no reason (and not an accident) then they can be considered evil. Selfish can be a doorway to evil, but is not neccessarily evil in and of itself (though it can seem like it), I would consider it being neutral if you have to have a definition - which in most fantasy rpgs....you do.

[RandalThor]

Putting gods in the mix really makes it easy: Evil is what your god says it is!

[thrud]

I'm in the middle of processing the thread mentioned above but it makes my brain hurt....

I'll try to give some background and maybe that'll help?
We're putting togeather a new group and the pc's are turning out somewhat "special"...
It's pretty much no holds barred.
1. Dyari Archmage, rolls Dark temptation RoCoI, Hmmm Kesh'Ta'Kai seams like the right god to worship
2. Dwarf Dark Paladin of ... I can't quite remember but it might be Moralis (we're still working out the details) He got inspired by #1...
3. Dyari Night Blade, Not sure if she's the religious sort but I wouldn't be surprised if she chooses to worship somehing colorful
4. Myyri Healer with access to some cleric lists, I know this is an odd ball but it'll make for an interesting pc and he swears he's going to be cranky
5. We have a Ranger in the making, Race is still undecided
6. Human thief
7. Human Fighter

The thing is we're still fighting the good fight. Even if #1-3 have some dark influences we all hate the unlife.
So we might be a tiny bit evil but it's mostly a thirst for power more than anything else. It's not like we're eating children or anything...
Now it becomes crucial that Worshipping the gods on Char?n is very NOT Unlife.

Now it's ok to laugh at the group composition but we usually manage to wrek havok with all good pc's as well. So it probably won't matter much in the end anyway...
What do you say now?
Good/Evil/Unlife

[thrud]

Is there no edit function?
After finally reading through the entire thread about Gods, Daemons and Unlife it's still a mess.
But I think I'm not to far off if I say you can be evil and NOT be unlife but if you're unlife you ust be evil.

[Elrik]

There are notes some place on the Difference between Unlife and Evil.

Evil is just that. You are a harsh, nasty person who likes to drown puppies, pull butterfly wings off and eat babies. (Simple)

Unlife: you are a slave with some free will. Once enraptured by the Unlife, you become an extension of that Thing. You become a minor avatar of the Unlife and your very presence makes it stronger. You think you are making decisions, but in the end, it is all for the Unlife. Your goals, ambitions, new lust for power are all in the name of the Unlife.

You can play an evil character, but once you are a servant of the Unlife, you give up your character sheet. (In theory at least.)


My simple approach...

[kmanktelow]

Hi, Thrud, et al,

For my take on the Good V. Evil debate, I would look at the Colours of Magic, as being the defining factor- essentially, that as long as they don't cast Unlife Spells, they won't register as 'Evil' to the various 'Detect Evil/Realm' Spells.

This won't necessarily stop them registering as 'Evil' to Alignment detecting spells, however- which might class them as malevolent/hostile, rather than the out-and-out 'Evil' that a servant of the Unlife would register as to an Alignment detecting Spell.

All the Best,

Kevin.

[Elrik]

I think I am going to throw this into the fire guys ... I am half asleep so bare with me. Putting my GM hat on.

I agree, the debate of what is Good and Evil is as personal to life experiences, education and profession as it is academic.

Some game system agree with this debate. That Human Good and Evil can not always be easily quantified. So their Detect Evil spells only detect things like Demons, devils, Supernatural creatures and the like. Personal judgement must come into play.

So for example, the reason a servant of the Unlife radiates Evil, because they are ensnared in that evil. Sometimes Servants become tainted by the presence of their evil masters. If a servant works through other agents and has never met their master that person does not radiate evil. A Charon priest "may" radiate evil because they channel their Gods Powers.

Undead are creatures of the Unlife or Negative Life, depending what concept you wish to follow. In my game not all undead are Unlife, they are trapped souls who have lost the sense of self and function on a few of the more powerful base emotions. Litch and the more powerful undead make a decision or make a demand of the "Cosmic" powers, so I will make them charged with Unlife powers, and sometimes a Void power.

So when your Players storm the castle of Lord Zajak the blood bathing mad man that calls himself a prophet of Doom, and Detect Evil, but nothing comes up. Because he is a firm believer that the End times are near and that by bathing in blood he will rejuvenate his body and be able to step into the Next World once this World is dead.


E

[thrud]

Let's go with k.i.s.s. either you're evil or you're not.
1.) Can you learn an evil spell list and not be evil?
2.) Can you cast spells from evil spellists and not be evil?
3.) Can you you worship a god of Char?n and not be evil?
4.) Can you be evil but not unlife?

[egdcltd]

I'd say definitely yes to number 4.

[Elrik]

1) Yes, but corruption points should start to tarnish your view after a while.
2) See 1
3) Yes. Just because people are under the thumb of a religion does not mean they are part of it. Or even that they see it as evil. When they sacrafice that captured soldier, they hoped their God would send them rain or a magnificent harvest or fish or fertility or a boy/girl etc.
4) Yes. As long as you retain your free will you are just plain vanilla evil. When the Unlife grabs your soul you become an extension. The GM has to make that call I would think.
 

[TomOBedlam]

Let's go with k.i.s.s. either you're evil or you're not.
1.) Can you learn an evil spell list and not be evil?
2.) Can you cast spells from evil spellists and not be evil?
3.) Can you you worship a god of Char?n and not be evil?
4.) Can you be evil but not unlife?

1 - Yes
2 - Yes
3 - Yes
4 - Yes

If you were a Yinka (Y'Kin, tanara...) The list would be:
1 - Can you learn an evil spell list, and not be evil. Example - Water law. (Yugal is the god of fire)
2 - Remains the same as your original, but with different examples
3 - Can you worship a god of Orhan and not be evil?
4 - Same as yours. To the extent that people know of Unlife as anything else than another name for evil.

Belief in absolute Evil leads to absurd conclutions (Thats my philosophy at least)

Look at any group in todays society, or in history, that you consider to be evil. Do you think they believe they are evil? You can easily find examples of groups that were Evil (as declared by the church at the time) that nowdays are considered to have been Good or, at worst, a bit cooky. (Case in point the Cathar)

Belief in absolute good and evil mostly comes from religions, and the definitions all come from their holy texts. Well, that and AD&D where the gods of the gods decided what gods are good and what are evil.

[markc]

 Non SW answer
 IMO it depnds on where you think or how you think magic arises in your game. I know that I brought up this point in the big evil debate in the other thread.
 Also IMO it can be tough to draw conclusions from real world examples as often we can only see the effect but not all of the ideas and situations the lead to the action.

MDC