Topic: What do people Know

[Elrik]

I started to re-read the Shadowstone chapters and came across an interesting statement by Kalen.

?There?s no such thing as undead!? Kalen rolled his eyes.

It amazes me that in a World of Gods and earth shaking magic of every tint, that Kalen would have the brass to say that!

So is this part of the education system of the Nobles or more?

I have always played it that people grew up with the ideas of undead, of creatures made of magic. At one point people would have seen something that made them go, "Holy Crap, I wet myself!"

But I suspect I have been wrong. There will always be those folk that grow up in a protected enclave, even when they explore the outside World they are safe. Until they deviate from their normal day, or even if bad luck happen upon them they will hold to what they know by sight, touch and sound.

What a division of knowledge and experience!

Ponder - Think - Enslave

[RandalThor]

I always go with differing levels of basic information dependent upon the character's race, social class, cultural origins, intelligence, profession, etc..

For example: a fighter would have payed more attention to the stories of great warriors, a wizard would study mystical lores, etc..

Somethings would span all cultures/professions/races.

[Walt]

Hi Elric,

I?m trying to become a little more concrete, because this over-simplified answers don?t help in developing anything new (and I will concentrate on Jaiman, because thats where I?m in at the moment)
And for the start also on the easiest: the basic farmer/worker in rural areas
This guy, in my opinion, knows nearly nothing. He know?s his Lord, perhabs some rumours of the bigger political situation, e.g. in Helyssa that there was a powerchange and now some sea-god cult reigns and in Rhakhaan Empire that there is a big civil war in the nord. he knows that their are elves around, and perhabs some uncle already saw a skyship in the clouds. There are magicians, yes, and magic is bad. All magicians and their lot are mostly arrogant and evil. For the gods: pray, pray, pray - and hopefully they don?t take any notion of you! What is Essaence now idea! Dragonlords? Tales for children.

How do you handle it for the normal rural population?

[Walt]

To take no an example out of the western part of Helyssa, a liitle Lordling with an estate, well educated, doing some horse breeding and so on.
He for sure knows the major players of the Rhakhaan Struggle, he know about Esaence and it?s flows, probably bout Portals, has some understanding of the Yarthraak cult, would in this geographical location know that there is some Lord of Ulor planning havok. He knows that demons are reality, but would he now about unlife? Difficult...and the Loremasters? Depends on their set-up, like discussed in the Loremaster thread. In my world he would be aware of some diffuse sage cult, perhabs he also knows the name, but not much more. Undead? Hm, out of stories? Or out of history?

[Elrik]

"How do you handle it for the normal rural population?"

Most of my rural population knows their territory pretty well. Most have been to a village near by and understand that life is hard. Faith is a matter of need. The Rain God is needed, the Earth Mother is needed, Shaal is needed. Yet, if something comes along that makes it easier the people will refocus.

When I talk for my rural people I keep the conversation simple, and public, private problems are just that. These are a Proud people, they work hard and suffer for their efforts. Winter is cruel, the Summer sun is cruel, draught is cruel, all common realities to these hardy folk. Individual intelligence does play a major roll in their communication. In Yokal villages there are still people smart enough to better use their own language, others no so much. I have often talk with a drawl so think my players couldn't understand me. Closer to a larger city the better people talk as they learn from others.

They deal with problems as they must. Most will seek help to stop a small lugroki raiding party. Some will try on their own, often paying the price. The community rarely has time to gather except on festival days. Old women do help in arranging marriages and young children are free to play till they can work the farm, boat or mine.

Life is a constant struggle, not to survive but to find value beyond the crops or tools. People need to understand why they are there, why they have to start or why some babies need to euthanized.

Life varies from place to place. Some lands are harder to live in and people are much more generous. Others jealously guard their goods, and still overs kill the first stranger they see. A few of my Western peoples go a viking, raiding and stealing from villages down and up the coast.

Now you are in my actual thinking process, sorry to mire you so deeply. I will ponder what people will do, their age and success or failures. Not every Farmer has a good day and wants to be bothered. Not every old man has a story and not every bar maid is easy. Children are more often scared of strangers and most of the elders know that when a group of well armed strangers come to town, bad things will follow.

Now a bit of truth to my Peasant Scheme.
History has proven that our ancestors had more contact with other people then we thought. As history has released more facts to us, I have had to adapt my views. Villages within a days walk of a city will be a rather Intelligent Lot. They learn from what they see. Adapt what they need and develop on an older idea. These people are clever through need, and far from lazy.

Those villages that are more then a days walk become shadows of the more successful villages. They will become a unique knock off of another village, if you will. A water wheel is very old but new technology may have improved how it works. The distant village may not have that technology. A village closer to a city will have access to knew or improved metals. Better wood to build with and access the more remote villages do not have. A lot of this is pretty obious to us, but to them it is not.

Where you are really decides how I talk and act. But I try to mix it up, everyone has problems, a few times personal problems of villagers have taken off in to full blown adventures. Villagers are not trusting and few will endanger their lives for a stranger.

ramble ramble ramble

 

[Elrik]

Undead? Hm, out of stories? Or out of history?

That is one I struggle with all the time. Some few Great Lords know about the Iron Wind. Few know about the Unlife. it would seem that to the nobles in the big cities the very idea of Dragon's is foolish!

I think I am going to treat them like well educated, inexperienced children. They know what is truth and a lie, Myth and Reality. Because they Know! A nobles stats and personality will decide if they pee themselves when faced with that undead.

The common folk believe without knowing. They are a superstitious lot that function on stories and not books. Even the city folk are superstitious. Even if they have never seen the Undead, hey know them to exist. Superstition is as much a teaching tool as are books in some cultures.

As I read through Terry's stories there have been a few things that catch my eye.. Jad sleeping for long hours... He is a full blooded elf.  According to the "rules" Elves mediate and do not need to enter a dream state, although after long hard activities I will have elves fall asleep. I am unsure if I want to adjust my game or keep the status que.

A lot of this I am still processing =_)

[Walt]

To change the question slightly:
somebody goes into Nomikos and looks up
-all information about the Lord of Ulor
- everything ybout the Jaimani artifacts
- all the information about Arnak and the Yarthraak

What does he find in the archievs?

[Elrik]

Great question

Best answer: What the GM wants him to.

I have been down this road before. All this is up to the GM, below is only how I might approach it.

Lorgalis is a known quantity. I would bet there are even books written about him. How accurate they are is entirely different story. I think you would find out where he lives, Ulor, and what he did, try to dominate Jaiman. You would probably find his heritage, appearance and favoured weapon. You may even find he has a child or twelve.What he has been up to of recent, conjecture and fantasy.

Artifacts should stay mysterious. Maybe an overview of the major powers that guess work at the minors, or even vice versa. There is never a nice neat list to go by in books.

Arnak and yarthraak. This would take time, but with a bit of work I think the party could put them into perspective by their actions alone. These orders are always two faced, they try to hid what they are doing, but there are so many of them it gets a bit suspicious what is happening. I am confident there are books on these orders, essays and historical facts. I am guessing there is probably even an entire section for these orders alone as they have been major players in Jaiman for how many centuries?

When I am working on such orders like Arnak and yarthraak I tend to think in terms of the Templars. We don't really know what the Templars where doing. They had knowledge and experience that they shared, they had major detractors. Some say they practised Middle Eastern and Jewish Mysticism. Others say they where Tyrants, and collected hug sums of money. We don't really know because we where not there. Same logic applies to the Arnak and Yarthraak faiths. The pary can read, create a massive chart and in the end, it is all just words, right. So maybe the books pain an unflattering picture, which I think they should. The party still has to go and talk to them, join or fight them.

The more time they spend at the library the more valuable information I will give them, or take away a false fact or even add a few more.

Not sure if this is really an answer Walt, I really don't want to tell you how to run your game.

E

[Walt]

Best answer: What the GM wants him to.

I?m wondering why it?s an often habit in Forums to answer first with the obvious?

But thanks for the content-related answer, Elric.

Now let?s go to the details...
Lorgalis. A known quantity. Perhabs a kniwn quality? I think it?s written in history (al least in some few libraries, surviving the war of dominion) that he was a great warlord, living in Ulor, suppresing Ly-Aran and Xa?ar...trying to dominate Jaiman? An assumption, but for sure written somewhere. And there will be also some antithesis (in what ever content -hey, Metallion, this could be one for you!).  Thinking of Metallion, the antithesis could be "freeing jaiman of the enslavin jameri artifacts" what would be probably been in the confidential vault of nomikos - and thanks Elric, thinking of this gives me a new idea for my campaign - great - because the players are checking out the Norek library there can be hints on scrolls about logarlis in Nomikos. AN darriving there they will find out that the knowledge is classified and not available for them!) The idea with the childs is superb, so I have also to think about his major generals in the second age. I?m wondering if there will be a describtion of the Heralds of the Night. And if so, what would be written about them???
His heritage? In my opinion: no way! Nobody knows that he is a half Ka?ta?viir, or?

For the rest-later

[Walt]

so, for the Jaimani Artifacts...if you look up Nomikos, probably you should be able to get the information when they were made, by whom? pobably their would be only hints on Tethior..no, not in Nomikos. In Nomikos, for sure there would be also Andraax named. And if Andraax is in this respect named, their would be alsom some hint on the Loremasters, and the organisation.
So, new question, if somebody goes digging about the Loemaster, what would he discover?)
So also the 6 realms, the original kings and so on would be written...and perhabs a hint of why they were made, the link to lorgalis...much more? Hmm, dont know

[TomOBedlam]

If you look up Loremasters in Nomikos you will find a book that describes them as a cult of child-eating demon worshippers. And a book that has Proof (tm) that they never existed. And a book that explains that they are the shepherds of civlization and are the source of all that is good. And a book that epxlains how Andraax is a title not an actual person. And a book that shows how Loremasters are power hungry rumor mongers that try to change the world politics to suit their needs of power and wealth, and...

In a world with slow travel, low level of literacy, and dare I say it - No internet, there will be multiple sources giving multiple versions of the truth. In Nomikos (as I interpret them) you will find all versions. A few days north, in Esov Turic you will find only books and information that are approved by the arch prelate

(click to show/hide)

And if you think as I do, that information will look like vanlilla Church of Orhan, but filtered to make people more afraid and susceptible to the teachings of the Unlife. 

.

What information is available and even legal is all based on what political, social, philosophical and religious powers are in control.  The word of Terry isn't available to the inhabitants of Kulthea, so they will never be sure.

And dare I say that this forum has spawned more interesting discussions the last days than in a long time.

[Walt]

If you look up Loremasters in Nomikos you will find a book that describes them as a cult of child-eating demon worshippers. And a book that has Proof (tm) that they never existed. And a book that explains that they are the shepherds of civlization and are the source of all that is good. And a book that epxlains how Andraax is a title not an actual person. And a book that shows how Loremasters are power hungry rumor mongers that try to change the world politics to suit their needs of power and wealth, and...

In a world with slow travel, low level of literacy, and dare I say it - No internet, there will be multiple sources giving multiple versions of the truth. In Nomikos (as I interpret them) you will find all versions. A few days north, in Esov Turic you will find only books and information that are approved by the arch prelate

(click to show/hide)

And if you think as I do, that information will look like vanlilla Church of Orhan, but filtered to make people more afraid and susceptible to the teachings of the Unlife. 

.

What information is available and even legal is all based on what political, social, philosophical and religious powers are in control.  The word of Terry isn't available to the inhabitants of Kulthea, so they will never be sure.

And dare I say that this forum has spawned more interesting discussions the last days than in a long time.

Thanks Tom,
fine ideas. I will try for the next weekend to make my mind up on potential titles for this 5 nice books and perhabs the writer names and the age. Probably it?s enough to summarize them a little bit like a pretetxt and than they are fine to use.

[vroomfogle]

Thanks Tom,
fine ideas. I will try for the next weekend to make my mind up on potential titles for this 5 nice books and perhabs the writer names and the age. Probably it?s enough to summarize them a little bit like a pretetxt and than they are fine to use.

Tom, those are some great ideas.

Walt - if you come up with some book names then please post here.   In fact what would be useful for a lot of GM's I think would be a library cheat sheet, listing of books/authors/descriptions/summary for each of the topics you mentioned.   In fact, that gives me an idea, I'll start another thread.

[cedher]

Another thing to think about with accurate information. How old was the events. Lorgalis almost succeeded taking the continent 6000 years ago and then he died. Only chance any normal people would know something about him is that if he would become a major religious figure mentioned in books corresponding to the bible. Only in places like Nomikos would you find out more details, might even see the hints about that he might not be dead afterall, but with all that information that has been rewritten time and time again over the millenniums so probably not even the best and most respected history books contain more then 10% of the truth.

As for Andraax and the Loremasters, their biggest moment was 12-13.000 years ago, raising the world from the darkness (something that almost resembles them with gods), and then later during the second era creating the artifacts and defeating the evil in the wars of dominion. They have a bigger chance being mentioned in the great religious works like prophets of gods and so on, but after that it been 6000 years of not so big events, so who would really think that the "loremasters" they might have heard about (adviser to the emperor and so on) are actually the same people as in the beginning of the world.

Ok, feel I am starting to ramble more and more here, but hopefully it will make some sense

[Elrik]

If I haven't said this yet, I appreciate your input.

I think I state the obvious out of Habit. I used to run a gaming club with a number of kids, I would get a question and state "As the Gm it is your job to interpret the information and present it your way." It is sort on my checklist. 

Rambling is more then welcome.

When ever I think of the major players in the games I step back and ponder who they where, are and what they want to be. Pretty standard I would say.

The one thing I have learned from Human history, there is always a casual observer. A person that is seeing things that may not realize what they are seeing. Even when you don't think there is someone there, there is someone there! Granted, two men having a meeting in a bunker with no humans around, there is a good chance the details of that meeting are absent.

It is my firm belief that people escape. Everyday, slaves successfully escape. Peasants leave in the night and are never seen again. No matter how firm a bad persons grip, people will get out. Those people take with them information on their former capture/master.

There will always be someone curious about the bad man so they keep an eye out for just such a thing as an escaped slave or servant. This curious person is part of another order or maybe even a scribe paid for by the Royal Library of some kingdom. The scribe collects information. Over time he profiles the bad person and he wraps all his notes up and writes a book. Over thousands of years that book just might end up in Nomikos or the Royal Library.

On the flip side, the Bad Man hires a scribe and they write a book. About how noble and powerful and holy the bad man is. That book ends up right beside the previous scribes book.

Now the Party has to review the books. Both books spout facts, and events and even names. To confirm what they are seeing the party has to expand their search. They find other people that know things, or a Log book from a now dead kingdom that lists the hardware sent to a war front with the bad man. Maybe a priests diary that expresses pain at the cruelty of the Bad man and his Lugroki army.

All that being said, Lugroki army is the loudest.

Other things that I have noted. People learn, it is the curse of our condition. If you are a slave, you learn from your master, you will learn by virtue of being there. You will hear conversations and maybe even learn to read. If you come from a long line of Slave/Servants, you probably had some basic schooling. In short, On the average, The more Knowledge able the Master, the More knowledgeable the servant/slave. Servants talk and share and stories get out.

The source is always suspect, unless you where there, you really don't know. And even then! What did you see? How much did you see? What did you know of the situation? What did you do?

Information is subjective, as we all agree, to the person writing it out.

I think there would be a tonne of information about Lorgalis, yet it is old information. Truth is muddled by conjecture, conflicting testimony and unanswered question. Everyone knows the Lugroki are evil creatures, so why does a man trying to save Jaiman have an army of lugroki? Kingdoms have spies that ask questions, and are sent out to find details. Loremasters may make a trade in information, but I don't think they have corned the market.

I think anyone that knows a bit about the Jaiman artifacts, knows Tethior's name. I am always hesitant to involve Andraxx. I have always viewed him as a Prison Warden then a saviour. Andraxx is not a kitchen sink sort of name, well educated and read individuals will know him but what do they know? In truth, not much. Books probably guess at his activities, putting him at a location that he may or may not have been there...etc

As I said before, your party will not know the truth till they go and look for themselves. That is pretty much for anything and everything.


I have more but have to zoom!!! AAAAAHHH SO much to say and not enough time!

[Elrik]

I'm sitting out in the middle of a construction site, working on the wireless network for the contractors and I am mumbling to my boss. Now he is used to me mumbling at him as I do it all the time. I guess I was making a bit more sense then I am used to because he actually answered me.

"Sounds like an easy question in the beginning, but gets hard as you explain it."

he was totally right. This question is easy to start, but once you add the social rank, access to information, faith, belief, ideals, upbringing, intelligence, ability to construct the big picture, sex (males have more access then female), who you know, knowing when to ask questions and when to shut up, what you are willing to do for information and how hard you are willing to look for that information are all huge factors. That is just the start!

A lot of times I tell my PC's what I want them to know, but now think I have been robbing them of gaming experience... have I created a major problem by my own indulgence? I think I have.

That is just the beginning of my thinking... There are so many variables, I honestly don't think I can give a decent answer.

If I rethink some of this, I think a far bit of information is stored in Nomikos. Is it all accessible by the public? I am not so sure. Some things are considered Dangerous. Some of it is just conjecture, pretence and riddle. Some is unabashed truth. Still other bits are to dangerous to share. I also think that Nomikos has scribes that go and collect books, scrolls, notes, scraps of paper and rumours. I think it get catalogued and stored. Again, not all of it sees the public sections. What would a character have to do to get access to those protected works? How do they earn trust...

If a scribe walked up to you and said "What does your Magic xxx do?" Would you answer him? I wouldn't. Half the power of Magic is when your foe has no clue. Yet that scribe can watch your sword in action and record what she thinks it does. He may get it wrong, right or misunderstand what he sees. He records it as he understands.

I think the Unlife Priests are well recorded. Their truths are twisted with their lies and still taken as a single event, they look pretty reasonable (for the most part) but put with the big picture they are monsters feeding off the souls of children. As I have stated before, that is not something I would give away without some effort.

In regards to Lorgalis, I think if the party looked hard they could find just about anything about him. It may take years of research and careful study but in the end, the party could end up with more details then the library. I still think that nomikos has a sea of information regarding the master of Ulor, but the characters have to decipher and organize it. The characters would have to follow up with the information, be it a dead end or leading to more information.

... I am still not happy with this explanation...

[DonMoody]

Don't forget that in a world with magic and active gods, there are non-Earth methods for gathering information.

A wide variety of information gathering spells and spells that allow (in)direct communication with 'higher beings'.

DonMoody

[Elrik]

Exactly. If you knew the right question, I think you could find out most anything.

[TomOBedlam]

The gods have agendas of their own.
A detect Evil spell (if such a spell existed) cast by a priest of Cay would register Evil from a homosexual.

Priests have a tendency to also have agendas of their own.

I would say that having active gods and information spells makes things worse, not better.

As for what information is available at Nomikos I believe (as stated in the Library thread) that the issue is not what is stated, it's finding out what is true. Every concievable theory will be represented in a place like Nomikos. Imagine wikipedia, but with no editors, no reviews.

[Elrik]

Cay has a problem with Homosexuals? or is that an example? If that is the case I have a play that will have change professions, or at least gods.

In all my years of gaming I have never played a channeller... how is that for one sided.

I think we all agree that priests/Gawds/Men/Women/Clown all have their own agendas.

If the characters are doing something that the God is interested in, I can see him/her/it taking action. Otherwise I very much doubt they care or find it interesting. I don't have that much involvement from the gods. To easy to abuse, which I have done in the past.