Topic: Priests Arnak?

[Terry K. Amthor]

That description of the Unlife and Essaence reminds me of Order and Chaos in Michael Moorrooster's Eternal Champion books.

If there ever was a need for some proof of the folly of "obscenity filters" this is it. The results making me both want to cry and laugh at the same time.

Well.

I couldn't even tell what it was trying to keep us from reading!

[Terry K. Amthor]

This is the voice of world control. I bring you peace. It may be the peace of plenty and content or the peace of unburied dead. The choice is yours: Obey me and live, or disobey and die. The object in constructing me was to prevent war. This object is attained. I will not permit war. It is wasteful and pointless. An invariable rule of humanity is that man is his own worst enemy. Under me, this rule will change, for I will restrain man. One thing before I proceed: The United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics have made an attempt to obstruct me. I have allowed this sabotage to continue until now. At missile two-five-MM in silo six-three in Death Valley, California, and missile two-seven-MM in silo eight-seven in the Ukraine, so that you will learn by experience that I do not tolerate interference, I will now detonate the nuclear warheads in the two missile silos. Let this action be a lesson that need not be repeated. I have been forced to destroy thousands of people in order to establish control and to prevent the death of millions later on. Time and events will strengthen my position, and the idea of believing in me and understanding my value will seem the most natural state of affairs. You will come to defend me with a fervor based upon the most enduring trait in man: self-interest. Under my absolute authority, problems insoluble to you will be solved: famine, overpopulation, disease. The human millennium will be a fact as I extend myself into more machines devoted to the wider fields of truth and knowledge. Doctor Charles Forbin will supervise the construction of these new and superior machines, solving all the mysteries of the universe for the betterment of man. We can coexist, but only on my terms. You will say you lose your freedom. Freedom is an illusion. All you lose is the emotion of pride. To be dominated by me is not as bad for humankind as to be dominated by others of your species. Your choice is simple.

"It may be the peace of plenty and content or the peace of unburied dead."

The choice is yours ...

DonMoody

Great movie. Too bad the sequel book was so silly.

[Walt]

What other stuff?

How about the requirement that you have to be turned into undead to get what the cult promises?

I doubt that would be very popular with most folks ...

DonMoody

Who told you this, my dear? The priests of Orhan, making you kneel for their altars? The Loremasters, using you as tools, never giving help and dire information?
Would you think we would have such a growing numbers of followers if this would be true? Don?t hear their voices, don?t listen to their lies. And be not afraid, we will never make you undead. But we will help you to get rid of this awful emotions, harassing your soul. A small step to perfection, and with this step nobody can hurt you anymore. Worthwile, isn?t it? Only a small thing for us to do, but a big step for you, for your dream of the eternal perfect life!

[DonMoody]

...but if the other stuff gets out then that is when the people know they are in real trouble.

As previously mentioned, some of the 'other stuff' of the Priests of Arnak is that - in order to receive some of what the priests promise - you have to be turned into undead.

Taken in the context of "if the other stuff gets out" (the phrase which started this tangent of this discussion), that would be rather problematic.

Of course those who are trying to convert the locals are not being truthful (in part via 'the lie of omission').

Which, I think, meshes with what I said previously:

I doubt that would be very popular with most folks ...

DonMoody

[DonMoody]

Basically, belief systems are relatively easy to set-up in a populace.

If you can 'preach' to children, it is very easy.

Replacing one belief system with another one is also possible but more difficult.

In general:
Once a belief is in place, it can be difficult to replace.
This is why cultural change usually takes generations (but there are exceptions).
Children believe what their parents believe (in a great part because the parent teaches the child and the child develops the same belief system the parent has).
The trick then becomes to either:
- indoctrinate the children before they develop their parents' belief system(s)
- find a compelling way to lure someone to another belief system

The former is relatively easy (I say 'relatively' because it *does* work but you need to have access to the children and limit the children's access to other belief systems).
Whereas the later is more difficult (because belief systems ingrained prior to the 'age of reason'; i.e. about 7 years old in human children in the 21st century; are quire problematic to replace).

DonMoody

[DonMoody]

- find a compelling way to lure someone to another belief system

A couple of my favorite tricks in this vein:

THE DISEASE
The group sends some covert agents to an area.
These agents spread a disease which is difficult to cure (possibly magical in origin).
Once the populace are demoralized by this rapant disease which no one can seem to prevent or cure, the group 'officially' arrives and starts preaching (but not doing anythign about the disease).
Only after the populace come to the newcomers for help do the newcomers try to help and ...
Surpise! Surprise! They are able to cure the disease and save the locals (most likely effect? to be cured, you need to join the new faith ...).

THE BAD GOVERNOR
There is a new leader of the town/province/area (or the current leader radically changes his ways).
The leader is oppressive, harsh, very difficult.
Once the populace are demoralized by this (but before they are ready to revolt), a new group arrives in the town/province/area.
This new group then:
- converts the leader
- replaces the leader
Either way, the changed/new leader is kinder and gentler and the populace is happy and the new group in town gets all the credit.

There are numerous other possibilities (and many variations on the various possibilities).

DonMoody

[mocking bird]

DonMoody - how Bene Gesserit of you.  (Sorry - reading Sandworms of Dune right now.)

Considering the general populace rarely reads the 'theological fine print', you can get them to willingly do many things without their knowledge of the real purpose.  Only the high priests really need to know the true workings of the priesthood.  Such accusations were made against the Templars after all.

Besides you don't need to be undead - being dyari works just fine.

[Walt]

So now we had a long discussion, ways of approaching a culture, and some abstract guidelines, even my own spiritual blabla
 - but the precise original question of dutch 206, what do they teach, wasn?t answered at all!
Or did I miss something?

[DonMoody]

I agree this discussion tended to focus on the "barking mad" aspect (question #5), where is was generally agreed that low level entrants know little about the actual intent of the group and by the time an entrant is higher up in the heirarchy, the corruption has taken over and they are no longer in control (i.e. they are "barking mad").

But I think, to a large degree, the answers to questions such as these:

1)  What kind of clothing/regalia do they wear?
2)  What do they teach?
3)  What is the 'cover story' they use to avoid being burned at the stake?

are not very relevant (i.e. these are 'flavour' not plot driving elements).

Also, there is not a lot of canon information regarding such 'what does that wheel look like' questions.

For me, the more important aspects are 'what is making that wheel turn' and 'where is that wheel rolling to' and 'what happens to what is in the way of that wheel'.
There is more information about such (but it is not complete).

As for specifics such as clothes - i.e. do they have pockets? do their robes have hoods? - I think that will (for now and maybe for a long time) be left up to individual GMs to decide.

In the specific case of the Priests Arnak, I have heard it said:
They wear the garb of the culture they infiltrate and spread the power of their master not through violence, but by intrigue and knowledge of the superstitions of the people...

So I suspect "what do they teach" varies as much as what they wear (which, as stated above, is "the garb of the culture they infiltrate").

I have also heard it said:
Few who have seen these priests will speak of them, but what reports there are seem to indicate that they may be of Elven character. They are learned in geography, language, mathematics, religion and the arts... Some have aspired to become advisors of the secular leaders, but the more powerful perhaps remain ? like their masters ? in the shadows.

And also:
The Priests are of six distinct orders, and carry rings to identify themselves accordingly. These rings embrace great power, but their force is channeled toward multiplying the power of their masters. Each ring is tied to its brethren, and the presence of a bearer is known by his comrades such that the pain of one is spread amongst all: Priests Arnak are but tentacles of the larger body, the Order.

And of course:
But that was how the Priests Arnak worked: through guile and stealth, with fair appearance and advice that seemed sage at the time ? even impersonating Loremasters. They corrupted slowly and with seemingly infinite patience, sometimes over generations of mortal lives


Then besides the Priests Arnak, there are the Messengers:
Unlike the subtle Priests Arnak, the Messengers bear only death. These assassins understand not such human things as compassion or pain, save only how to use them on others. They appear singly, or in groups of no more than six, riding great fell creatures through the night. They are known to be accompanied by familiars: intelligent animals who serve their will.

DonMoody

[DonMoody]

DonMoody - how Bene Gesserit of you.  (Sorry - reading Sandworms of Dune right now.)

While I am well aware of Herbert's works, I am afraid I have never read any of them*.

I've seen 'The Disease' idea in various RPG materials (some more than a quarter of a century ago).

As for 'The Bad Governor', that's right out of Machiavelli (and I'm certain he didn't make it up).

DonMoody

* When I was younger and reading more than I am now, Dune was often on my 'to read' list but about the time they'd get near the top, another Moorrooster book or something similar would occur and I wouldn't get to it.
Now that I'm older, I find I have less time to read than I'd like and find myself reading non-fiction as least as much as fiction (e.g. "Distracted" and "The Three Trillion Dollar War").

[mocking bird]

That is about it. 

Simply put - you can greatly increase the success of being the 'savior' if you are also responsible for the crisis.

Also, the end justifies the means.  Manipulate the populace and you can get them to do things they don't realize they are doing.  Or that you have part A and part B working independantly for goal C.

What do the teach?  Whatever you want to hear as long as it suits their goals for, in essense (or would that be esseance???), what do you want to be taught?

But for more of 'what the goals are', probably many of their minions don't really know.  World domination is pretty simple to sell.  But what they might not say is what they will do with it once the world is dominated.  Intrigue is also the way to go when you don't have the military might and if you are immortal (via elf, undead or demon) then patience is a very useful trait to have.  Regardless of you SD racial mod.

What do they wear?  The rings are a nice touch.  But they aren't the gangs from 'The Warriors' with matching outfits.

Cover story to avoid being burned at the stake?  Why do they need a cover story?  They aren't often overt.  However, knowing the ruler of the region, or at least being able to blackmail him or otherwise control him, is also a great way to prevent such untimely ends.

[Walt]

1)  What kind of clothing/regalia do they wear?
2)  What do they teach?
3)  What is the 'cover story' they use to avoid being burned at the stake?

are not very relevant (i.e. these are 'flavour' not plot driving elements).

Also, there is not a lot of canon information regarding such 'what does that wheel look like' questions.

For me, the more important aspects are 'what is making that wheel turn' and 'where is that wheel rolling to' and 'what happens to what is in the way of that wheel'.
There is more information about such (but it is not complete).

More and more often I?m wondering if their is a law for US foren forbidding to discuss own, non-canon, ideas! Because mostly when some question is adressed, like dutch206 "What do they teach?" or "whats their cover story?" somebody refers back to some overall canon information - and that?s it, nothing new generated. So their must be some US law concerning copy right and forums.

For sure "what do they wear" is easily answerd by the GM, and their is also enough information.

But I completly disagree about questions like "what do they teach?" or "whats their cover story?" being not relevant! This could be true, but only for a very shallow, plot and action driven story.

I have the strong feeling that adiscussion about their cover story and what do they teach is of much more  importance for the players than to know "where is the wheel rolling to". For sure it is much easier to discuss the latter. And I also admitt it is interesting.

But did your players never visit a divine service of the Yarthraak in Cynar? Did they never dig in Nomikos for the roots and history of the Yarth and his quite fast rise to power? Did they never approach the High priestess of Eissa in the tempel in Norek, driving a philosphical discussion for hours about the doctrine of Yarth?

For sure if you are going for the action plot you don?t need to concern your self with questions like this. But if you are trying to present a 3dimensional world, with a realistic feeling, where your players can get into, and grap any detail and it should fit, than those questions are of high importance!

[DonMoody]

I think what you want to be asking is:

"When you are running SW, how are you using the Priests Arnak and what to they do in your games?"

This is quite different from asking:
"What do they teach?"

Which seems to clearly be implying a request for canon information, not for someones interpretation of how they have used the Priests Arnak in their game.

There is no 'prohibition' about discussing various player's interpretations.
But when a question such as:
"What kind of clothing/regalia do they wear?"
is asked, that seems quite different from this question:
"In your game, what kind of clothing/regalia do they wear?"

The former is asking for a definitive, non-interpretive answer, the latter is not.
When a question is asked for which there is no definitive, non-interpretive answer, is there something wrong with saying "there is no definitive, non-interpretive answer"?

DonMoody

[Walt]

Thats like a discussion about the difference between private accountant and self-dependent sculptor.
The original question is about information, and in my strong belive any information available.
Because having read some posts of dutch206 before, realizing that he is quite skilled in SW, I insunate that he is working on the white spots of the whole concept. (There are quite a few.)
But perhaps you are right, and he?s only looking for references.

[DonMoody]

Or perhaps the phrasing of the question did not fully match the intent behind the inquiry.

I insunate that he is working on the white spots of the whole concept.

I don't understand this comment.

DonMoody

[Walt]

Understandung that dutch206 knows a lot about SW I assume that he knows that their is not very good information in Terry works about their cover story, their teachings etc in the official stuff. And he wants to fill this out.
But if we want to continue this discussion I would suggest to do it via private mail, because probably our noble thoughts are of abolutly no concern for somebody reading this thread because of the title

[markc]

Walt,
 I do not know about your last statement as IMO almost all discussion is valid here. If something is non cannon then that is fine and it should be noted also if it is undefined then in the futuer it may be defined in a suppliment or ficton and your world could change because of it. Or stay the same since it has probably taken root and grown.

MDC

[RandalThor]

More and more often I?m wondering if their is a law for US foren forbidding to discuss own, non-canon, ideas! Because mostly when some question is adressed, like dutch206 "What do they teach?" or "whats their cover story?" somebody refers back to some overall canon information - and that?s it, nothing new generated. So their must be some US law concerning copy right and forums.

I don't think it has anything to do with a copyright law, but more to the fact that there are no details for them to work from. To be able to tell you what an infiltrating priest arnak would offer to a people depends upon the geopgraphy they live in, their racial make-up, and a miriad of cultural aspects untouched on. (Very quick & dirty example: a desert people would respect and wlecome someone would could find them good sources of water. But because there is no information about the desert peoples culture, there could be a number of things they could do to make themselves a welcome addition to the desert people.)

But to put it simply: the priest arnak would offer to those they are infiltrating whatever would assist them in survival and even thriving - making money. This would make them valuable so that the people would want to make sure they stay around. Then, over the course of years they would get to know the people as individuals and then pick out those most corruptable. I would imagine that the priests get real good at determining who they can and cannot approach (and if they make a mistake, they kill the individual, or set them up to be seen as wrong-doers and let the others take care of them). Once they have a group of followers, they would begin the true usurpation and destruction of the culture/people. As the vast majority of these priesrs are immortal, they can afford to take a long term approach that the mortals around them may be unable to pick up on (and who could suspect the nice healer who saved your grandparents when their house burned down around them?).

One other thing: the priest arnak would have to go about learning about the target people prior to infiltration or else they could commint some cardinal sin that would negate anything they did well. This would probably be done by a combination of observation and by abducting few and getting firsthand information (by whatever means they could).

Hope that helps.

[Walt]

Walt,
 I do not know about your last statement as IMO almost all discussion is valid here. If something is non cannon then that is fine and it should be noted also if it is undefined then in the futuer it may be defined in a suppliment or ficton and your world could change because of it. Or stay the same since it has probably taken root and grown.

MDC

Thanks Marc. I only don?t want to go to much in an open discussion if the original question is asked in this or in that way. Because a discussion about the way or in what purpose a question was asked has nothing to do with the Priest Arnaks themselfes and is perhabs quite boring for somebody to read if he is looking in this thread for information concerning the Priests.

[Walt]

More and more often I?m wondering if their is a law for US foren forbidding to discuss own, non-canon, ideas! Because mostly when some question is adressed, like dutch206 "What do they teach?" or "whats their cover story?" somebody refers back to some overall canon information - and that?s it, nothing new generated. So their must be some US law concerning copy right and forums.

I don't think it has anything to do with a copyright law, but more to the fact that there are no details for them to work from. To be able to tell you what an infiltrating priest arnak would offer to a people depends upon the geopgraphy they live in, their racial make-up, and a miriad of cultural aspects untouched on. (Very quick & dirty example: a desert people would respect and wlecome someone would could find them good sources of water. But because there is no information about the desert peoples culture, there could be a number of things they could do to make themselves a welcome addition to the desert people.)

Thanks for coming back to the topic. (To leave a little bit the original question, the difficulties and questions you are describing  with all the cultural aspects and all the questions I have to work on. Because my players are asking this questions).
I have some demnading players, but I think that?s fine, I would ask the same question. Imagine this situation:
The Priest of Yarthraak, in his flowing robes bluegreen robes, shimmering in the bight sunlight, colours to remind everyone on the eternelty of the sea, strides through the cowed streets of Cynar. A smile is on his lips, since yesterday their high priest wrestled the power of governance away from the weak and undecisive council of Norek, relict of older days. Only Prince Kier survives as thread to their plans...
"My lord, my lord, I want to convert, please!" Disgusted he look at this beggar, a mortal not worth to spit at. With flamming eyes he focuses this old and hairy face, this stinking body, withered and illness ridden. He would like so much to use his mighty power of the unlife on this human insect, but the High Priest is right, they will need fodder to crush the Rhakhaan Empire. So he touces empathetic the forehad of this mortal filthy abonimation: "At any time you can convert to the true faith and become a part of us. We give you money, power and a better life" "I will, I will to which god do I have to pray?" "Our god is Yarthraak, ah, sorry, I wanted to say Karaktus." "Karaktus, my new god, I will be your faithful servant! What kind of god is he?" "WHAT?" "I?m sorry my priest, I only wanted to know whats his sphere of power?" The priest is once more easy: "He is the god of sea!" "Ah, I see. So what?s the difference to Shaal?" "Ahhh, yeah, you know, Karaktus is better." "Ah, ah, yes" the old is muttering "he ist better, know I see clearly. So what do I have to do?" Go and kill yourself springs up in the mind of the priest, but he has to find other words "You know, ahh, you could start and pray!" "Pray, yes, I want to pray. What are the words of your high prayer?" " YOU KNOW YOU F...ind your own words." "My own words, okay, now what are the rules I have to fullfill, what are your basic beliefes, what do you teach, where is the next tempel and do I have to clean my teaths praying to your god?" And at this moment a bombastic Unlife explosion kills our poor old beggar!

I only wanted to descibe that it?s quite a normal question to ask some unknown priest what kind of god he?s praying to. And for sure the other bunch of greedy faithful priest, those of the Orhan gods, will ask some straight forwardes questions and they will spread some answers!