Topic: Andraax - local god?

[Brimariis]

Could Andraax (or anyone with great power - i.e. Ondoval) become a local god?  What would it take for Andraax to become a local god?  Does a local god have to have a certain proximity?  Isn't "The Oracle" considered a local god?

I have used some of the old supplements from WOTC (Primal Order) in the past and one of the major pieces is the local god needs worshippers.  If Andraax gained worshippers, how dynamically would the world shift?




Pondering,
Brim

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I would say it depends upon the mechanics of godhood.

Personally, I tend to see it as something along the following....

1) Worshippers basically channel their inherent mana to god through prayer (ritual worship channels even more power).

2) The gods is connected to individuals to whom power is channeled back (i.e. clerics and such).

3) Clerics use the power from their god in order to gain more worshipers.

Now, the prayers of the worshipers sends the power to the gods

Typically, I require that character dedicated to a specific god has to go through a ritual which establishes the connection from which the Cleric draws his power (usually this is an off camera event), it is usually called Investiture.

I would think that there would have to be something along the lines of a "critical mass" of worshipers before somebody would be ascended to godhood. And that ascension would also transform them in the process as well, turning them into a creature of spirit (much like the Lords of Orhan).


Just a few thoughts...

[Old Man]

I wonder what the critical mass should be before the first channeler appears? How much energy does the God/proto-God want/need before some leeches? leaks? is given? back to the priests?

Food for thought,
Old Man

[yammahoper]

None ever comes back because a gods hunger has no limits.  All gods seek to become the one god, and this can only bedone if they devour all the others.

lynn

[Brimariis]

Are we refering to the Lords of Orhan or alluding to Agothu?   

[yammahoper]

It was more of a sarcastic explanation for what has happened to earths various patheons from a monotheistic bias.  As the most powerful diety absobs the weaker ones, it acquires characteristics of the devoured, via doctrine and holidays, etc.

In the end, there can be only one.

lynn

[smug]

I thought you might be talking about Steve Jobs.

[Marc R]

It's, ahem, come up.

Bare minimum to open your own shop.

Find 1 person of the channeling realm willing to follow you.

Obtain a source of power. (You can derive it from another dierty, an object, an earthnode.)

Learn the "Channel Opening" spell.

You are now the local god. . .for that one person. . .as long as they do not stray beyond the limits of the channel spell, you can hook up to them once a day and tank them up with power. (Or drain off of them)

Deriving power from another god is the easy way to do this. (i.e. "Open a franchise") as you can use the same prayers/spells.

The hard way is to break with a faith after learning the spells, then do research on them to re-apply them to a new power source. (Takes a while, read those nasty spell research times.)

Of course, the reaction to doing so is a little more extreme than opening a McDonalds within a block of a Burger King. . .the words Crusade, Inquisition, Jihad come to mind.

[smug]

Hey, those burger wars could be pretty intense, too.

Fortunately, the customers have expanded to eat more burgers.

[Marc R]

If you can train a whole slew of folks in the channeling skill, you can make them your "source". . . .if you can find enough intuition 75+ folks of the channeling realm.

In the context of the gameworld where the above came up, concecrated houses of worship were focal magical items. The Dome/steeple was the transmission tower.

They generated 1 PP per man/hour of worship in them. (So, in most places, you'd get a constant trickle, then a big flow on holy day.)

[Brimariis]

Well, if we were going to have a new local god elected, Folenn (or a majority)
should be in support of Andraax and perhaps Karilon.  I wonder if force of
worship (meaning a god says, "yo, worhsip me or I will slay your soul or worse
give you a kiss from Kadaena") can channel power.

I would like to nominate Andraax as a local god to Jamain.  If elected, would
Lorgalis need to move?  (there so many continents he could pursue in
domination!) 

Or better yet, I would like to start a cult to worship Andraax if I can't
elect.  I have several people who are in my cult.  We drink psychic kool-aid
and our symbol is the "purple eye".  Anyone want to join - its free!  You just
have to be ready to sacrifice yourself to keep the last eye from shutting. 
(Not to hard.....pause.)

[markc]

If you can train a whole slew of folks in the channeling skill, you can make them your "source". . . .if you can find enough intuition 75+ folks of the channeling realm.

In the context of the gameworld where the above came up, concecrated houses of worship were focal magical items. The Dome/steeple was the transmission tower.

They generated 1 PP per man/hour of worship in them. (So, in most places, you'd get a constant trickle, then a big flow on holy day.)

 I would like to see the spell list were it explains how to create this transmission tower. No do not take me wrong as I agree with you but IMO thier is where RM2 breaks down as in RMSS anyone can buy PPD or start play with it as in my game. This base PP's give gods and other something to absorb.
 Note: I am not trying to make this into a version vs version thing but stating a problem that I think one solves better than another.

 Please be at Peace.
MDC

[Marc R]

thing is, RMSS doesn't really get into "You loose 1 pp/hour in church" either. That was a house rule.

Both systems kind of imply that the diety is tapping arcane essence on a vast scale for their power. . .that they get some undefined "something else" from worshippers.

[markc]

LM,
 I agree the problem I had in RM2 was you were not allowed to have PP unless you had a Stat above 75. Which is not a lot of the population. Now if you say they are harvesting belief or prayer then that takes some new rules or like you said worshiping inside building-A provides 1pp/person-hour. Or higher in a very holy site or maybe with a special person leading the prayer.
 Maybe this should be a ne spell list.
MDC

[Marc R]

Venturing off the rule set, to house rules.

Best "what's a god?" set up for RM I saw was this:

Spirits and corruption, in RoCo2 I beleive. . .the whole idea of formless creatures of pure "spirit" or "Soul" that shamen interacted with. . .

These became "corrupted" by contact with matter or people, taking on more physical aspects and intentions.

Now, say a shamen is in contact with a spirit.

Say that shaman avoids direct, corrupting influence with the spirit.

Say the Shamen gets a whole bunch of people thinking and praying at the spirit.

OK, this spirit entity is the Shaman's source of power, but it's not getting PP from the shaman, or acting as a broker even, gathering PP from the tribe and distributing it to the shaman. . .the spirit is "of spirit" so it can access primal essence far more easily. . .unfortunately, it lacks purpose or goals and is kind of formless. . .

The more subtle "corruption" (in the roco2 sense) of the spirit is via that worship. . .rather than being made materially corrupt, it instead is the focus of material worshipers ideas and ideals. . .over time it begins to take on the aspect of those expectations.

The more worshippers, the more the spirit gains purpose and focus, allowing it to draw more primal essence and hand it down to the channelers connected to it. . .this produces a feedback loop, a symbiosis of mutual benefit.

Mortal Worshippers feed the spirit identity and purpose.
The Spirit feeds the worshippers dangerous raw arcane essence transformed to "safe" channeling essence.

When the body of worshippers gets large enough, the spirit gets enough identity and purpose to become enormously powerful. . .people begin to refer to the spirit as a God.

If that is how it works. . .then no mortal can really become a god. . .unless they can somehow become an amorphous spirit first.

[Balhirath]

THAT is most likely the best explanation I've ever heard about how Gods came into existance in a Game World

[RandalThor]

That is  a very nice explanation. The process for a mortal to become a god could be a huge ritual and all that - takes years/decades, masses of people praying, maybe some hideous sacrifices if going for the dark god thing, etc..

As for people becoming followers, I believe something can be put together where an individual can convert to the realm of channeling is in order. Conversion is a big part of religion, isn't it? A DP cost depending on the type of spell-user, with the possible loss of some (or all) existing spell casting capabilities as a result, could be in order. In effect, you are switching teams. 

Why someone would do this could be any number of reasons: the new god grants powers that help dealing with a particular enemy, has a great dental plan, - plus many promise a particular paradise for their followers in the afterlife - who knows.

This could create some interesting campaigns dealing with the new "upstart" religions/gods conflicting with the established orders, I believe. 

If you think about it, this has to be possible, as the very first gods had to convert some people because why would the first people have their base realm as channeling?!? Unless, of course, it was the gods that created the people in the first place - then why whould anyone have any other realm than channeling?!? Of course, in a massively varied game-world both could be true 

Yes, this sort of breaks down to the "chicken or the egg" argument (though there really isn't an argument: something chicken-like gave birth to the actual chicken).

[Terry K. Amthor]

I thought you might be talking about Steve Jobs.

LOL!  Well you know how they talk about the 'Jobs Reality Warp' or something around him, and his mysterious charisma. I for one still remember the day more than ten years ago when I heard that Jobs came back to the floundering Apple as 'Interim CEO' and I said to a fellow Mac geek "I wish I had some money, because I would invest it NOW in Apple." Stock was in the low 20's then, and that was before a stock split several years ago. So it's worth, what, 14x what it was? Jobs, if nothing else, can inspire others and draw talented people (like Jonathan Ive, who designed the first iMac and the ipod) to him. There's a story about the iMac before the current one, the basketball one with the flatscreen, where supposedly he was walking with Ive through a field of sunflowers on his property. You can see where it goes from there. He made Ive think about the big flower on that stalk moving with the sun. That kind of brilliant thinking might not make you a god, but with the right connections, it can make you seem like a messiah, and from there you can build a cult...

[metallion]

Here's how I address the topic:

Worshippers alone do not a god make -- there are false gods.
Channelers who use you as your source do not a god make, channeling is merely the shuffling of power back and forth.  A mere Ordainer can have channelers, sending them power and getting power back.

So, what makes a god?

Divinity.  A god embodies something fundamental.  Local gods embody the land, which is why their power is tied to it.  Lords of Orhan and Charon embody higher orders of the cosmos, which is why their power is tied to the breach on spacetime that is Kulthea.  In that sense, the Moon Lords are actually Local Gods with vast localities, which is why they are tied to the Kulehtean solar system.

Being this embodiment means that it's not simply the god's inherent pool of essence that's being granted to channelers, but the energy derived from the land.  So why does a god need worshippers if they've got this source of power?

Because in our space-time, the belief of worshippers is necessary for a god to embody.  However, as I said, worshippers alone don't make a god.  The god must work at being the embodiment of whatever in order to be able to derive power from it.

The Lords of Orhan and Charon were, of course, divine before Kultheans started worshipping them.  Their embodiments are probably embodied in the higher-order space-time from which they came.