Topic: Menstruation in SW

[Cormac Doyle]

The definition of "Species" gets messed up as soon as you stop reading text books and walk out into the real world.

Here's a conundrum.

A type of seagull common from alaska, through Europe to Asia (following the Arctic Circle)

The Alaskan seagull CANNOT breed with the Siberean Seagull. (Does that make them different species?)
The Alaskan Seagull CAN breed with the European Seagull (Same Species?)
The European Seagull CAN breed with the Siberean Seagull (Same Speices ?) ... ??

Another example.

The Sitka deer (from Japan) is less than half the size of the European Red Deer. The Sitka deer has no antlers/horns; the Red deer has them in spades.

These were always considered to be separate species ... but when a herd of Sitka deer came in contact with a herd of Red deer in the Phoenix Park in Dublin (Ireland), they interbred to the point that some people argue that the Phoenix Park deer represent either a new, true-breeding species, or that the original two species are one and the same.

Typically, the offspring of "related" species within a Genus (between Lions and Tigers; or Ponys and Donkeys) will generate either no offspring, or infertile hybrids.

Even more interesting is that a fertilised mammalian egg can be implanted in virtually any mammalian host and grow to maturity (if there is sufficient room)

Thus cat embryos have been implanted in Rabbits. Dog embryos have been implanted in Cats. In Theory, a human could very easily be implanted in a Cow ! (Just imagine the conversation in the playground ... Your mother's a Cow ... yeah, what's your point ?)

This takes surrogacy to the next conceptual "level", and in the immediate future will put a lot of pressure on governments that currently track "Father" and "Mother" to break that down as

"Genetic Father" - (Sperm Donor)
"Genetic Mother" - (Egg Donor)
"Birth Mother" - (Surrogate or same as Egg Donor)
Guardian(s) - The designated adult(s) that take legal responsibility for decisions relating to the child
Custodian(s) - The designated adult(s) with whom the child lives on a part-timwe or full-time basis

Adoption/fosterage/et al should be legally re-addressed in this light for a very clear moral reason ... every child has the human right (under the UN conventions) to know their true parents, even if they have no contact with them. Additionally, from a medical point of view ... knowing the genetic parents of a person (and their medical histories) makes diagnosis of a variety of medical illnesses vastly easier.

Hmm - off topic. Sorry

Cormac

[vroomfogle]

Cormac, very interesting post.

I guess the bottom line is Elves + Human = Why not ?   It's fantasy after all.

[Kurgath]

Most interesting Cormac.

Not sure whether it warrents a Laugh point or Idea point so here's one of each!

[Cormac Doyle]

I study genetics ... how lawyers intends sorting out the mess that it generates ain't my concern

Cormac

[Sorloc]

I don't think it's all that off topic.
Those same considerations could potentially carry over to fantasy - Remember in the Beastmaster a ritual was used to move a fetus from the human mother to a cow; we now know, thanks to Cormac, that htis is a sound medical procedure (assuming teleportation and the fact the the cow must have an enlarged womb, and... and... OK, the idea sucks.  And I don't know what the point of the scene was anyway, but that's true of a lot of the scenes in that movie...

Where was I?

Oh, yes:

In Sorloc's world, Elves and Humans can interbreed, but the resulting issue has recessive traits - their offspring will always be a full blood version of the other parent; two half elves/half humans cannot bear issue. 

This is my way of explaining why the entire world is not populated with half elves. 

See, when you combine the phenonenal stats and special abilities of the elf with the human drive and reproduction system, well, I think the results would be obvious.

[Terry K. Amthor]

Don't they believe that Neanderthals interbred with Cro-magnons?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_Extinction

[Cormac Doyle]

Topic of debate - the two definitely co-existed in very close proximity.

(In Middle-East - there is evidence of settlements of both existing in the SAME valley at more-or-less the same time ... unfortunately, without a time-machine, it's impossible to prove simultaneous co-habitation ... the closest an archaeologist can come to that is to prove co-existence to within a couple of hundred years).

Genetic traces have proven to be inconclusive to-date

Cormac

[mocking bird]

Thus cat embryos have been implanted in Rabbits. Dog embryos have been implanted in Cats. In Theory, a human could very easily be implanted in a Cow ! (Just imagine the conversation in the playground ... Your mother's a Cow ... yeah, what's your point ?)

Not to mention the breast feeding debate.

I don't think it's all that off topic.
Those same considerations could potentially carry over to fantasy - Remember in the Beastmaster a ritual was used to move a fetus from the human mother to a cow; we now know, thanks to Cormac, that htis is a sound medical procedure (assuming teleportation and the fact the the cow must have an enlarged womb, and... and... OK, the idea sucks.  And I don't know what the point of the scene was anyway, but that's true of a lot of the scenes in that movie...

And in the Omen you have a human(?) child born of a jackal - although the insemination process is left out.  But in both cases, some leeway could be given if you are a high priest in an evil cult or the offspring of a (fallen) arch-angel.

Just a hair off topic but has anyone else found it odd that orcs breed with just about anything but not elves, even though in a Tolkein sense orcs are basically mutated elves?

[metallion]

In a world that contains TL 16+ and Arcane magic, what our understanding of science does not matter.

When do women menstrate?  If they have access to birth control herbs or magic, they do so when they damn well please.

In my campaign, this varies culturally.  One of the reforms the PC Namarian is trying to bring to Rhakhaan is knowledge of contraceptives -- apprentice work for herbalists, healers, rangers, alchemists, and all other spellcasters.

[munchy]

Nice spell list in RMCI (Midwifery or something like that it's called). Has a spell on it that would do the trick - contraception.

[lorenen]

  being myself quite a lover of numbers and symbols i have decided to use the number "3" when changing female evels and theyr cycles so..

* instead of 9 months to make a child grow elves need 12 months (9+3 where 3 is 33.333% of 9)

* menstruation only 4 times every year and influenced by seasonal changes.

being elves magical creatures the experience its not painful and negative as in humans and so all the typical problems are not considered from the point of view of elves. in regards of fertility and interbreed chances i think that the problem its not worth all the thinking.. how many elvish character do we have that want to have childs with human characters? its a merely plot device, as a GM i make happen what i want. if the female player want to have a child with her fellow players human character let them do it, maybe make them do some researches to find some help that can rise the chances of giving birth to a child  make them search for a book of "birth spells" now lost in some ancient fortress, so they (or some fellow mage) can learn those spells and use them when needed. I think that rules for these stuff are not very useful but some kind of "description" are funny and add realism. So pick a number/frequency you like (as i did.. i decided for "3", maybe you like more "4" or "7"  ) and do what you want.. faster and more funny 

[highpriest_rsw2]

This topic is the entire reason I want a shadowworld t-shirt that says on the back:
              SHADOW WORLD
Challenging gamers one menstruating elf at a time


Seriously though, this is the oddest topic I've ever run across on any forum...Way to raise the bar guys!

[Balhirath]

Yeah.. and the discussion have been remarkable serious and to the point, without any bad jokes or stupid remarks.
Quite a pleasure to read the whole series of scientific/game mechanics arguments

[dutch206]

I love this place.  You just never know what you are going to come across.  I believe I asked a similar question years ago that was something like:  "If elves are immortal, why isn't the world overpopulated with elven children?"

I believe the response I got was from Heike Kubasch.  It went something like "Elves can choose when they become pregnant."

[yammahoper]

"Elves can choose when they become pregnant."

I have always kept this answer, and it is another reason I do not like the idea of half elves.  My brother convinced me to modify it to "elven women ovulate during moments of extreme feeling, like being in love, passion, or the fear and dread while being raped."  Suddenly there were half elves again.

Gawds I hate half races.  Sooo illogical.

lynn

[smug]

Presumably half-elves don't have to be the result of rape.

However, the obvious thing here is to hate elves.

As for the question of elf numbers, it hardly has to be the case that they can choose whether they become pregnant is the best answer to the question of why we're not over-run with stinky pointy-eared lettuce-munching hippies. The fact is that elves do die, for various reasons (violence, at least), so they need to breed just to maintain numbers. There could be lots of factors affecting the breeding rate that allow for a steady-state population of elves. So, speaking for myself, I wouldn't use the 'they can choose whether they get pregnant' reason.

[yammahoper]

Elves dieing by violence...ahh.  Some things are perfect togther, like pb&j.

Elves need and deserve more violence.

lynn

[mocking bird]

There is probably one thing worse than a dwarven berserker with a hang over - an elf-maid whose husband that has been contemplating a flower for a week, had PMS for three months and two kids at home - the elder in the 45th year of the human equivalent 'teen years' and the younger on his 8th year of the 'terrible two's.  No wonder that flower is looking good. 

Elves dieing by violence...ahh.  Some things are perfect togther, like pb&j.

Elves need and deserve more violence.

lynn

Alternately, come up with a really evil and powerful bad guy.  The elves will get depressed and decide to leave.  Those that stay and fight will a) die by violence if they lose or b) some die by vilolence and if they win, still get depressed and still leave.  I see it as a win win situation - death by violence and no elves.

[Old Man]

...
I believe the response I got was from Heike Kubasch.  It went something like "Elves can choose when they become pregnant."

Hmmm. I have always used the same idea for Elves in my campaigns. I thought the source was Dragaereans from Brust's Jhereg books, but am not sure.

Ciao,
Old Man

[symbolique]

This topic is the entire reason I want a shadowworld t-shirt that says on the back:
              SHADOW WORLD
Challenging gamers one menstruating elf at a time


Seriously though, this is the oddest topic I've ever run across on any forum...Way to raise the bar guys!

I posited this question, because I have a female player that posed it to me.