Topic: Alchemist General spells enchanting arrows

[Jengada]

GMs, do you only allow 1 arrow to be enchanted with General * spells? Or do you allow a group of arrows, and if so, how many?

[PiXeL01]

I would allow either five or ten thinking about mass compared to a normal handheld weapon although I know physics has little place in a fantasy setting.

[Ginger McMurray]

I'd probably allow 5 but I've never seen anyone craft them. They don't stack with the bow so they're really only useful when fighting things that require magic to damage them. For those you can just buy some +5 arrows.

[PiXeL01]

There are various optional rules in Arms Law for whether you combine bonuses, average, or use the better of the two. Of course for hitting magic beings the arrows needs to be magical (unless you rule a magical bow extends its magic onto each fired arrow)

[Majyk]

Yup, I never understood why making the case of one needing to be combined with the other.

We don’t demand the same for hafted weaponry where the wooden handle needs to be enchanted as well as the metal blade/head of a weapon.

I hated it as a GM and even moreso as a player.

If a weapon is magical, add its effect to the hit/crit with whatever full bonus it possesses and stop adding even more math to an already simulationist game.

Arrow or bow, whatever boni are available, give’r, babee. 

[markc]

There was a good article in the Guild Companion about this that I used.


Also I do not remember where but I thought there was some text about what/how much could be created with the General Alchemist spells.


I can also see the number and or amount of items vary by game worlds and or how common magic items are in a game.


MDC   

[Ginger McMurray]

There was a good article in the Guild Companion about this that I used.

Link or synopsis, please.

[Jengada]

I've been following the conversation, and it seems to have shifted to bow vs. arrow bonuses, which is fine. I do wonder why my player seems to want magic arrows instead of a magic bow, but it was more the spell question that I was interested in. And in rereading my post, I realize I had incorrectly referred to General * spells when a bow or an arrow would be a Weapon * spell.
In the end, for projectile/projector questions, it makes sense to me that one would want a bonus projector most of the time, but when dealing with a target only affected by magic, you want magic projectiles. Because most projectiles are much more breakable than other weapons, it's likely to be rather expensive to make and use them.

[jdale]

It seems like it would be more efficient to use a one-shot enchantment on an arrow (preferably a batch of arrows) rather than crafting them to be permanently enchanted.

[Ginger McMurray]

I've been following the conversation, and it seems to have shifted to bow vs. arrow bonuses, which is fine. I do wonder why my player seems to want magic arrows instead of a magic bow, but it was more the spell question that I was interested in.

That does seem odd. I'd probably discuss it with them as they may not understand how things work. Maybe they're thinking if they have a +20 bowbut fire +5 arrows they only get the +5.

[Jengada]

That does seem odd. I'd probably discuss it with them as they may not understand how things work. Maybe they're thinking if they have a +20 bowbut fire +5 arrows they only get the +5.

I don't think the character knows how this rule mechanic works at all, but maybe. I think she's focusing on the arrow as the part that does damage and may not even realize a bow is an option. Or she's figuring a bow will be much, much more expensive than a few arrows.

It seems like it would be more efficient to use a one-shot enchantment on an arrow (preferably a batch of arrows) rather than crafting them to be permanently enchanted.

This is a very good point. Seems a perfect case for using Weapon Runes from RCI. Hmm, a bow that allows you to cast Weapon Runes on the arrows would be pretty swell...

[markc]

I went to the guildcompanion.com then went to search and typed in bows, and a list of articles popped up. I looked at a few and did not see what I thought was there right off but I do not have the time right now to read each on.
Some I think you would find very interesting:
Note: This is from memory and I do not have access to all my old files so some info maybe in another place. In general I find if I go to my old files and look at my filing system stuff becomes clearer.


1) Wyrd Bow (I use the list in place of the rangers list to summon animals as summoning in my game is a long term ritual vs cast a sell and creature instantly appears from some place.
2) Articles on Weapons in general and changes to the RM combat system when using them, includes a lot of extra weapons and things like X sword does an extra point of bleeding damage vs AT 18-19. It gives weapons more flavor vs specific types of armor.
Note: Weapons I liked were the hand and half axe as well as 4 or 5 others (can not remember the others right now) and my players really liked the unique options for weapons.
Note 2: I printed off (saved electronically) the entire weapons article and made one big file and printed work that I used for my game.


How I have used bow rules: synopsis
1) Average bow and arrow bonus but used magic quality of arrows and or magic +'s to determine if it was enough to damage creatures.
2) In the future: I think I am going to do the following the bonus of the bow limits the bonus of the arrow for OB purposes and the magic quality impact on who and what the arrow can damage. The base bonus of the bow limits the max bonus applied by the arrow to 5 more then the bonus of the weapon.


Items in general:
Item Bonus: smith quality + material quality + magic quality. And I do not limit bonus to multiples of 5, in fact I reduce the bonus to keep the numbers small and I keep the material zero point as it is in the book.
Future: I think I am going to shift the zero material up at least one material, ie (I do not remember the zero point right now) if iron is now base material bonus of +0 and low steel is +5 I am going to have iron -5 and low steel is +0. This is in a effort to lower some bonuses in some areas and increase some bonuses in other areas (ie combat styles).


Does that help.
If you have more questions you can post them in the general area or contact me by PM.


MDC 

[markc]

I remembered what I do for general better now; 1/4 larger item, 1/2 smaller item and 5-20 arrows depending on game.
Note: small item is a bridle, large item a saddle other items take multiple castings.



In general I require the spells to be cast while the items are being created and only special spells create arrows on the spot. IIRC those that create arrows on the spot are not the base alchemist lists as I always got the feeling (and used them in my game) as the profession spends down time to prep for action time and they have an advantage in areas because they do not summon/create instant solutions to problems.


MDC

[brole]

I think you would need Weapon * instead of General for arrows.

A + bow would be giving its bonus due to greater accuracy and + arrows would give its bonus due to accuracy and penetrating power. So these bonuses I consider cumulative. As stated above a character would need magic arrows to hit creatures only affected by magic weapons.

Making a +5 magic arrow:
Level 1 Work Iron
Level 3 Work Wood
Level 4 Weapon I
equals 8 weeks crafting time along with a successful fletching skill roll.

One might want to collect them after shooting.

A high level Alchemist should have capacity to create several during this time.

[markc]

In the past, I do not remember what is official, I have used General for arrows as it is only the head that is a weapon, the smallest I use for weapon* spells is a dagger/knife weapons.


Other small weapons that I would use general for are darts(tiny/small), blowgun ammunition, sling ammunition, etc 


Yes it does take quite a few spells (thanks for breaking out the spells and times) and that is why in the past I have used 5-20 arrows. But also there was a game or two when the spells were modified and the creation time was significantly reduced in which the instant like factor became more of an issue.


MDC   

[markc]

Another area of issue in the past:


1) Tools that could be duel use:
In this case tools such as those used in farming, logging, ship building, smithing, etc that can also be used in combat were generally seen as using the general spell vs the weapon spell.
a) areas where it is different: weapons such as a war hammer that also had smithing powers, ie it is a war hammer first and a tool second.
b) a lot of farming tools can be used as weapons, such as flail's, sickle's in eastern martial arts as weapons were often restricted.
c) Your Game: IIRC the weapon enchantment was more expensive then the general enchantment so you could say all duel use items have to use the more expensive enchantment.
game effect: if you let players use the cheaper method all the time it may unbalance your game in the long run...but... using the more expensive method for all duel use items means a lot of common use tools are going to be potentially a lot more expensive and thus rare in the game. ie no +10 magic plow +20 to cutting roots.


2) You Could:
You could define where the bonuses go so they do not go other places, ie a +10 general spell says in the text (because you have defined it that way) to only apply to "crafting" checks. But then you might also need to have enchanting spells and or effects to make your object more durable and resist other effects by using another spell thus making the craft item more expensive then a weapon.
Example: You create a smithing hammer, +15 to all smithing rolls, then it needs an heat and cold resisting spell, durability/strength/reliability boosting/resisting and or repairing spell or maybe even a new general enchantment for each type of smithing you want to bonus to apply to (weapon/armor/black smtihing/jewelry/ gem creation (from Middle Earth and or RM2 EC)/etc).


MDC   

[markc]

I also just remembered that ropes and chains were an issue when the rope mastery spell lists came out, IIRM the name correctly.
I think the list is both in RM2 and RMSS.
MDC

[Hurin]

And I do not limit bonus to multiples of 5, in fact I reduce the bonus to keep the numbers small and I keep the material zero point as it is in the book.

I always thought that was a missed opportunity in Rolemaster: One of the great things about using a percentile system is that it allows more granularity. Yet almost all the bonuses are expressed in multiples of 5 -- perhaps due to the original marketing of RM as a supplement to d20 systems. I think we're well beyond that now, though, so I am happy to give my players +8 swords and +12 armor. It allows you, as GM, to give out more varied rewards.

[markc]

Hurin,
Yes, I rarely had skill bonuses that were in multiple's of 5 and we did not round up or down to multiples of 5 to make the math easier.
That is to say unless we were trying to quickly do the math, ie most people find it easy to add multiples of 5 and then you add or subtract the number(s) you need for your actual skill+ roll (+ or -) mods.
Today most if not all of the math can be done on a PC or a phone or even a simple game application.


MDC

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Even in the 80s, everyone playing RM2 had a calculator! In fact, as the GM, I bought ten or so cheap calculators and considered them part of the tools in playing RM2.