Author Topic: Damaged limbs, sepsis, and purification  (Read 900 times)

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Offline Jengada

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Damaged limbs, sepsis, and purification
« on: September 26, 2020, 10:34:10 PM »
I have a character whose are was shattered. They don't have a healer nearby who can deal with it, so it's going to take a natural course, except for a couple of possibilities.
I'm figuring the limb will not set, with shattered bones, and that there's a real chance of septicemia (bacterial infection that gets into the bloodstream). Without getting too bogged down in repeated RRs, it seems that allowing a cleric to cast Disease Purification on the injured character once a day (maybe twice? four times?) is a reasonable way to keep that from happening.
I'm also thinking I will still have the arm deteriorate because of damaged blood supply.

Anyone had a similar situation? How did you deal with it? Or even if you haven't, I'm interested in thoughts.
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Offline PiXeL01

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Re: Damaged limbs, sepsis, and purification
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2020, 10:52:03 PM »
Personally I’d throw real life out the window and let the character roll for the amount of time needed to heal. If they roll negatively then I’d consider the the conditions you describe.
Otherwise your suggestion regarding the cleric is sound in my humble opinion.
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Offline markc

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Re: Damaged limbs, sepsis, and purification
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2020, 10:59:59 PM »
In general I would look up info on the web or in a book and try and find an example like you have.


Then I would decide what level of detail I want in my game and how to do that with in the rules or with a moderate adjustment or addition to the rules.
If you have them I would look at herb info in RM books and other books about sepsis and broken bones. I have heard the old MERP book Hands of the Healer from the 80's or maybe 90's was a great source for info but I myself do not remember the book info.


Myself off the top of my head, I would ask and try and answer;
1) How bad was the break and what was the crit description or action that gave the result.
2) How do I want the have wounds treated and the effects of not treating them to be resolved (ie in my RMSS I use nerve damage rules from the book if wounds are not treated properly, yes this can make PC's less powerful then other PC's but also is a reason for PC's to retire from more active life or take more of back seat in the action, it also means players try and be more prepared for wounds in general)
2a) Can my players deal with more comprehensive rules on wounds or will it subtract from their fun? Just because they say I do not like the more complete rules does not mean you should not include them.
2b) Do the more through rules add or subtract from the over all game or are they a distraction.




Note: You can also propose a test of more complete way to deal with injuries such as broken bones, burns, muscle pulls, ect and then go back to a more easy way.


Personal Experience:
In most of my games it has taken new players a while to get used to more complex wounds (ie crits) when coming from other game systems or in RM games in which healing was almost always a spell, potion, herb, money expenditure or simple sleep cycle away from being normal or close to full combat effectiveness.
Also it can happen that a PC experiences a series of poor rolls on their part or good rolls on their opponents part and they collect enough wound penalties that make the PC almost unplayable or a sever burden on the rest of the group. Some groups can enjoy that extra burden and some that like a more video game experience tend to dislike it.


If you want some more help from me I would like to know the exact crit and then I can tailor my response a bit more. In general I have found the wound rules in the RMSS better then the RM 2 version so if you have access to them you might take a look as if I remember correctly they were expanded on from RM2, also take a look at the old MERP book Hands of the Healer (not the newer version as IIRC it had less info then the old book). 


Hope that provides some help to you.
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Damaged limbs, sepsis, and purification
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2020, 11:35:52 AM »
The fact that the two responses so far bracket the options from very simple, to very thorough and realistic, with my plans in the middle, makes me pretty comfortable.
Details are, the arm was shattered in a killing crit - the rest of the description was "bone severs arteries, character dies in 9 rounds." When there's a (rare) killing crit in my game, I weigh a lot of factors quickly before deciding whether to modify, or let it stick. In this case, I modified. The game session ended right after the fight, so I've had time to plan the exact consequences.
I'm giving the character infrequent periodic RRs (6 hours) vs disease, and if they fail their penalty on actions increases due to "whatever/everything." - that's where I'm not worrying about neuropathy vs. inflammation vs. sheer pain vs. (other medical stuff I'm not an expert on, or that would distract from play.) When they hit a certain point, the arm becomes a life-threatening issue. If the cleric thinks to do Disease Purifications periodically, then these RRs aren't necessary. The character just stays at their starting penalty, and the arm atrophies and dies in a few days.
Big-picture, this now IS the adventure: save the barbarian. The party has options (but not herbs, and the cleric's blind from a different crit in the same fight) and a race against time. They can send a member for help, from a village the party thinks hates them (but doesn't, actually). The best possible outcome is the barbarian loses her arm, either the arm died or the party cut it off to save them. That opens the door for a search for a lay healer who can make a prosthetic arm, and a new twist on the barbarian's character.
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Offline markc

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Re: Damaged limbs, sepsis, and purification
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2020, 03:36:57 PM »

(Note my computer is showing its age and at times when I het one key on this laptop it seems to put another character in its place, most times the spell check catches it other times it and I do not.)

Thanks for the info an how it is working in you game it, provides me with a good point of reference and thus how I would start and that hopefully will help you out as well. ;D


Before we begin I also do the same thing on occasion in my game(s) and that is reduce some crits in some situations when it comes to the PC's I do not (without a good reason adjust crits on monsters and or NPC's in my game with out some magic item, special ability, etc)


I will lay out a general pathway or flow chart that I follow and then how I will apply it in your case.


General Flow Chart:
i: Do I want to do this
ii: Do I think my PC's can handle this
(these two are important as I think you will see for my steps below and I frequently go back and ask these questions to see if I have gone too far)


Flow Chart:
Step 1: Ask i and ii above about question.
Step 2: Do research on issue, web, books people etc.
Step 3: Ask i and ii.
Step 4: What other things would I do to to help out and enhance the role playing on the topic.
Step 5: Ask i and ii.
Step 6: Do some analysis and math on how much time this will take in the game, do both quick math on best and worst case issues. And see if that time line works or if I need to adjust things and put things in the path of the PC's to help with the issue.
Step 7: Ask i and ii.
Step 8: General evaluation of info above.
Step 9: Plan how to execute the above so as to take as small as game time as necessary.

Your Example and how I would use the above steps:
i: Yes
ii: Yes

1) Look up broken bones on net.
Articles I found that I liked after reading a few:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/broken-leg/symptoms-causes/syc-20370412
https://www.aimu.us/2017/07/25/fracture-diagnosis-complications-and-prevention/

I read the info about condition, treatment and then problems that can arise from condition.

4) In this case other things I thought of to do were the following, find picture/video of broken bone and any issues that I was trying to role play (sepsis, swelling, blood pooling, paleness, shaking etc), in movies they talk about sepsis and other things as smelling like bad (so do I want to find smelly cheese or other smell to simulate these things)
5) Ask "Do I think my players can handle picture and or video? Do I think my players can handle smell and other props?"
5) Note: I do not want to spend time cleaning up puke or dealing with ongoing mental trauma do to some props.

split post do to time so I would not time out
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

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Re: Damaged limbs, sepsis, and purification
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2020, 04:01:50 PM »
Sorry about the size stuff as it seems somehow (through user error on my part, old PC, security software my post seems to want to insert size tags in places and I have to go back and edit out all of the text size changes, if I keep posting here I think I will go back to the writing posts in word doc and then copying and pasting them into forum)


6) Looking at possible problems (fever, shaking, shock, bleeding, damage of muscle, tendons and organs, other I want to include) what spells/herbs/First Aid/Second Aid/other do I need to solve those issues?
Do basic best time worst time calculation to see how long this might take in game time? Do I like the time frame or is it too long and or short? Make note if I change things for future so I can be consistent in game.


7) Evaluate steps above again and figure out way to present info in game terms, game speak and or game drama. Organize pict's, video and other props.
Do I want to deal with perm nerve penalties from wounds? In my game yes as this also means players are more involved with herbs, healing having healing in the game. I also do some other stuff but since they are in the game setting area I will not mention them here.
7a) Figure out rewards for good role playing if I want to continue to encourage this behavior.
7b) Figure out if I want to make changes for future.
7c) Might if I have time make simple chart/table with how I would deal with other injuries in this manner.


In general my RM games are in person and last 5-10 hours so me taking some time and looking up info on the spot gives the players some time to do other things and or take a short break. But if you game time tends to be for short in duration <4 hours then I try and reduce all interruptions for in game playing. 


Does that help you out?
Is there anything else I can help you with?


MDC   
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

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Re: Damaged limbs, sepsis, and purification
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2020, 08:31:42 PM »
After some more thought dram wise I would look at the following;
1) How to move them and what other impact that might have:
a) splints
b) stretcher
c) wagon
d) other
How does that impact the movement of the rest of the group?


2) Dealing with side effects:
2a) Cleansing (Sorry I am a way from my books at the moment and do not really remember the spell so I am going to give a general answer that might be wrong if I have remembered the spell wrong).
IMHO, this might help with the infection but does not treat the cause and may or may not be enough to prevent it entirely.
2b) PC's penalties for trying to do mental actions? Physical actions? Combat if different? ie depending on how I described the bone break I might say the PC have no Qu to DB and a -20 on top of that.
2c) What happens in combat if a foe wants to target the area of damage?
2d) Is there a chance of increasing the wound severity if the PC attempts combat?


3) Since this is a wound to replace a death crit do I want to say that now and in the future when I change such results I will also give a small penalty associated with the crit, ie reduced movement, -X to all actions, -X to all spell casting rolls (or insert specific skill(s) name, more a situational penalty such as wound causes pain when you ride a horse or other mount and after Y time you have a penalty of X for Z amount of time.


MDC 
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Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Damaged limbs, sepsis, and purification
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2020, 07:01:50 AM »
A simple favorite of mine is Herb Lore to know what herb to look for, what the herb looks like, what herbs are available in the climate/region the party is in and then roll Foraging to find that herb to fix the bone.  While they're at it, you can certainly add the herbs that will help with infection and blood issues.  I think ChL&CaL has a chart of herbs sorted by type of relief.  For a quick and easy basic list.  There are hundreds of herbs listed through all the companions which may (or may not) make it easier to find a good herb growing in the region you are in.

For the length of time to heal, that's a difficult one for an adventurer as healing requires "no appreciable movement" so that pretty much eliminates any combat for the PC.  To reflect that, I make the player fight at a decent negative -50 to -75 to show that the PC is favoring the limb and is trying to avoid appreciable movement.
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Damaged limbs, sepsis, and purification
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2020, 11:16:50 AM »
For those who care: they figured out that it was good to use Disease Purification, so there was no sepsis or ongoing RRs to prevent it. But they couldn't fix the damage. I inverted the "healing time" chart to get a "time-to-limb-death" and the character got 10 days. They didn't get it fixed in that time, so it became a skin-sack of dying muscle cells that the body was just pumping blood into, weakening the character. So the cleric did indeed use Herb Lore, and found herbs in the area that would sedate the character. Cleric already had clotting and burn-healing herbs.
Then the other tank sat on the injured character, the cleric held her arm, and the rogue used a katana to amputate - after making a practice cut farther down the arm. Then the shovel blade, that they'd heated in the fire, was used to cauterize.

Re: markc's suggestion about a photo. That was a no. From me, as well as the players :)
We ask the hard questions here, because they keep us too busy to worry about the hard questions in the real world, and we can go with the answers we like the best.

Offline markc

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Re: Damaged limbs, sepsis, and purification
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2020, 02:05:32 PM »
 ;D
Thanks for the info and I am glad it went well.


Yes at time sight based info can be too much.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.