Author Topic: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?  (Read 4883 times)

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Offline B Hanson

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2020, 05:54:00 PM »
Just wanted to throw a few thoughts on this, given my recent upload of my Book of Pales that covers some "Demonic" issues. First, I think Possession begs a variety of setting questions that RM, as a generic ruleset, does not address. We discussed this in overview here: https://www.rolemasterblog.com/rule-sets-settings-gap-rolemaster-shadow-world/

The overarching question is the disconnect between western thought of "demonic possession" and the actual mechanics of a fantasy world with a non-god pantheon and a vague idea of afterlife and morality. Hmmm.

Well, there are answers, but that requires the ruleset to be adjusted for a specific setting or for you to ask questions on the how and why. Because your questions aren't really about low level spells, RRs or levels--they are questioning how it works in general. Or, maybe I'm just being dense!
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Offline markc

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2020, 08:58:28 PM »
I believe Rasyr proposed  an alternate rule for this back in the RMX rule set.
(I also believe this has been discussed in the past a few times back in the RMX and RMU development and design days and such threads could help you if they are not lost in a crash)


I myself do not see a problem here but then again I have never had a GM or player try and bust this spell out every combat like you would tend to see in a video game.


Instead my experience has been that GM's and the rare player that access to the list or spells like this had rules to prevent it being used with as much frequency as a shield spell would be.


To be clear I do not have problems and or issues with a failure rate of 5% for most if not all spells and most if not all rituals.
I can see how that could be abused in some cases depending on how people play the game and a note should be made in this special case or maybe a magic item to help save vs possession if it is a huge problem in a game.

I also have a big problem with the idea that just because you have a lot of ranks your fumble number goes to zero vs just a lower number (like it was in RMU Beta that I looked at and some other proposed combat styles for RM). Most of the people who I have played with also had issues with zero fumble as well as the idea of auto save just because you are high level vs spells. ie they and I do not think everything scales with level 100% and that their are limits to how high and how low things can be modified.

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Offline Hurin

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2020, 09:34:00 PM »
I also have a big problem with the idea that just because you have a lot of ranks your fumble number goes to zero vs just a lower number (like it was in RMU Beta that I looked at and some other proposed combat styles for RM). Most of the people who I have played with also had issues with zero fumble as well as the idea of auto save just because you are high level vs spells. ie they and I do not think everything scales with level 100% and that their are limits to how high and how low things can be modified.


Yes, I agree there should always be some chance of failure. I think the RMU beta allowed fumble ranges to be reduced, but didn't it his a minimum floor of 2 or something?
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Offline markc

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2020, 09:35:28 PM »
To the Original Poster:
1) I would look up this topic in the forums to see past discussions, if I remember correctly the above posts are almost exactly in line with what was posted in the past on this issue.
2) If you have a issue with this in your game, make a house rule or provide another mechanism to offset this perceived imperfection in your game. I myself use hero points and other things for these types of cases but I can say as a GM and playing RM since 95 I have never used the demonic possession spells as presented in SL and most GM's I have played against use it sparingly and with other things being required to happen or happen because a person cast the spell.
3) In general cases of instant death are cases I would potentially make a rule to deal with the 5% failure zone but just like I have said in the past this is a feature of RM (I and people I know like about the game and how it is different from other games) and might have a problem playing in a game where it was not there.


So in general you have pick one area or spell in which I might have an issue depending on how the GM used the spell in their game (as well as other instant death spells that might be thrown around like they were everyday, every second abilities vs rare edge cases).
Also in general I rarely use Evil Spell lists and edit other spell lists for spells I or the group has had issues with in the past. Most groups I have been involved with also have had only a few problems creating and or altering rules that have unbalanced the game they play in. But I have seen some groups that have lots of trouble creating house rules and when looking at them seem to create even more unbalance the the rule(s) they replace.


If you need someone to agree with you so you can create a house rule for your game, then I agree that if you have an issue you should find a way to solve that issue.
But in do not see a problem in this area or have used other proposed house rules in this area in RM2 or in RMSS games I have GMed and or played in.


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Offline markc

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2020, 09:37:30 PM »
Hurin,
I remember some proposed rules that reduced the value to zero, that IIRC correctly were in RMU and I have through out the years when I was a moderator had people send me some stuff to look at and had the same idea presented.


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Offline markc

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2020, 09:50:11 PM »
Sorry for the interruption, my youngest nephew asked if I had an old keyboard her could have and I thought I knew where my old apple keyboard from the early 90's was...but it was not there.


I downloaded RMU B2 as I was trying to get a couple of groups to play RM and wanted to see if the combat charts were fixed from what I had seen before.
Both groups decided to play something else for various reasons.


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Offline jdale

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2020, 12:11:31 AM »
The minimum fumble in RMU is 1. There is always a chance, but once you have enough ranks, it's a low chance. Same with resistance rolls. If there wasn't a chance, why roll at all? We'd just say "you're immune to spells X levels lower."

And in this particular case, personally I wouldn't even apply fate points. The character is possessed for a day, the rest of the party will need to subdue him and then dispel or exorcise him or take him to a place the demon can't tolerate being or just plain keep him subdued for a day or two. Maybe lore suggests there are materials or circles or prayers that will make it unpleasant for the demon. There's so much story potential there, it's great. Yeah, it's a story no one expected but that's part of the fun of an RPG, the collaboration between the gamemaster and the players and the dice can create outcomes that surprise everyone.

(We haven't had that exact situation in our game, but we did have a couple situations where characters in the party got possessed, and needed to improvise exorcism rituals.)

I don't want to go on a tangent about the combat tables, which are totally unrelated to this thread, but see http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=19913.msg234602#msg234602 for a list of how they are being changed for the final release.
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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2020, 08:47:24 AM »
Yeah, it's a story no one expected but that's part of the fun of an RPG, the collaboration between the gamemaster and the players and the dice can create outcomes that surprise everyone.

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Offline Malim

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2020, 01:46:14 PM »
Caster was lvl 8 and our warrior was lvl 21 but have a special so he resist spells at x3 his lvl.
So lets take his normal lvl.
He is attacked by a base attack and lets say for mechanics sake that roll gives +/- 0 and he has 0 in resist as he actually have versus mentalism.
Then he has to roll 28 to succeed.
And versus a lvl 5 he would have to roll 19! Still better then an E crit to take a PC out of combat!
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Offline Hurin

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2020, 03:26:07 PM »
On the brightside, the problem you have is largely solved now in RMU.

A level 63 target would get effectively +110 to his RR versus a level 8 caster. This is because targets now just get a smooth +2/level to their RR. And as an added bonus, you no longer need an RR chart at all.

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Offline markc

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2020, 04:32:23 PM »
If my tone has come off a strong sorry as I have been dealing with some people who have asked for opinions about their games and ignored the many problem areas and focused and the good things I(we) have said and then complain when they have issues in play testing with problem I(we) have not seem to have seen.


IMHO, you have pick the wrong point of failure, the point of failure is how this type of spell is resolved in the standard RM system.
Fix: Change how this type of spell (I would also include here domination, control, some charm type spells) works in the RM system.


From the past:
At this point the discussion has generally dipped into the topic of people who take anti venom and the idea of spell res skills. If you want I can give examples why I have trouble with those examples.
In general:
I do not have any trouble with the way RM spell system works in RM2 and or RMSS but I do have trouble with some spells in that frame work and how they work.

In General RMU:
I do not have enough info about RMU as it has evolved in the past 4 or so years since I have looked at it. But I did have lots of issues about the direction of the game and many of the mechanics when last I saw it.
I did download the latest RMU B2 from the forums as I was recommending 2 groups to check out ICE games but issues arose, website was down, I check to see if the crit charts were fixed (and they were from me looking at one chart) but no SSL on site. So both groups decided to go with a different direction.

I will start another thread about dispel and possession.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2020, 12:25:16 AM »
And versus a lvl 5 he would have to roll 19! Still better then an E crit to take a PC out of combat!
Except of course that it's a RR, so you get a lot of possible bonuses to your roll, if only the stat's bonus. Magical items adding RR bonuses also exist by the dozen. Against a critical E? You get nothing at all.
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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2020, 01:32:35 AM »
And versus a lvl 5 he would have to roll 19! Still better then an E crit to take a PC out of combat!
Except of course that it's a RR, so you get a lot of possible bonuses to your roll, if only the stat's bonus. Magical items adding RR bonuses also exist by the dozen. Against a critical E? You get nothing at all.

There are crit negation items available.
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Offline Malim

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2020, 05:13:53 AM »
You get to parry the initial attack....
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Offline PiXeL01

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2020, 12:44:46 PM »
You only get to parry against a single attack if you are aware of it.

Again, it could be worse. It could have been a Black Channel or Absolution
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Offline Malim

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2020, 04:02:40 PM »
I'm still not over this...
But I made a typo.

The Sorcerer spell is lvl 2 and you can make an RR every other round, now we are were its reasonable.
The Evil Mentalist is lvl 5 and you can make an RR once/day.

Am I really alone in thinking that lvl 5 spell is insane ? :D
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Offline markc

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2020, 04:55:34 PM »
This area has been an issue for a long time, if you do a search from Demonic Possession on the ICE Forums you will find it pop up a few times every 5 years or so.


Also there has been some crashes of the ICE Forums and IIRC some posts have been lost so there have probably been more topics then have been lists in the search.


When I did a search it also listed an article on The Guild Companion about possession that you might want to check out.   


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Offline jdale

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2020, 12:12:26 AM »
The Sorcerer spell is lvl 2 and you can make an RR every other round, now we are were its reasonable.
The Evil Mentalist is lvl 5 and you can make an RR once/day.

That pretty much sums up the difference between regular spell lists and Evil spell lists. Extremely long durations are common across many of the evil spell lists, including permanent effects. This sort of thing is why it's so important that there is a meaningful cost to using the Evil lists.
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Offline PiXeL01

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2020, 12:58:12 AM »
I honestly do not have a problem with it. It only becomes a problem if your GM constantly makes you face it without providing you with tools or opportunities to avoid it.
But you already have those with such a high level resistance. All you need now is luck.
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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2020, 09:12:42 AM »
The Sorcerer spell is lvl 2 and you can make an RR every other round, now we are were its reasonable.
The Evil Mentalist is lvl 5 and you can make an RR once/day.

That pretty much sums up the difference between regular spell lists and Evil spell lists. Extremely long durations are common across many of the evil spell lists, including permanent effects. This sort of thing is why it's so important that there is a meaningful cost to using the Evil lists.

We play in Middle Earth and there definitely is. The powers that be can feel the darkness when used at high levels of power (10th and up). They're also not available to the party except for one character and the truly scary ones will be rare in NPCs. The character that has them gained access though an artifact which contains the soul and mind of a second age evil dude. So far she hasn't balked at his plans because he's been keeping them low key and playing towards her motivations. She's getting leery and will push back eventually. That's when the downsides kick in. :D

I honestly do not have a problem with it. It only becomes a problem if your GM constantly makes you face it without providing you with tools or opportunities to avoid it.

If I were a player I wouldn't have a problem at all as long as it were rare. I'd be kinda excited. "gimme the demon's personality, boss! I got this." :D
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