Topic: Archmagician costs

[PiXeL01]

I’m looking for advice.
In a setting where elemental magic is primarily done by clerics I want to turn the magician into an Essence Archmage. He would become a generalist where other Essence users would be specialists.
In this setting the magician would develop all Essence open and closed lists at 1/* per rank but able to develop Other Essence user   base lists at 2/*.
The Magician’s base lists are still accessible though highly restricted to all Essence users but expensive.

Would this work?

[Hurin]

It would work, but it would be extremely powerful to be able to develop other Essence users' base lists.

The Archmage was very powerful, but one limiting factor was the high cost of spells (2/* IIRC as opposed to other base casters' 1/*). So one thing you could do to keep a bit of that balance is to make the Magician's costs for everything 2/*.

[Ginger McMurray]

I've always allowed pure spell users to pick their extra 4 base lists from another class. It's worked well. Though in the current campaign I picked them for them based on backgrounds. That was partly because the players are new and it made life easier on them.

[markc]

IMHO, you need more trade offs then you have listed, ie flaws to balance the additional power gained.


As I see it the power gained is as follows:
1) Pick list vs given lists by profession
2) Combined (generally speaking) best attack spells with best healing spells


Other Issue
1) in general RM2/C smaller number of DP vs RMSS can make it harder to balance things like initial DP cost of skills as small changes can have a large impact.




What I might do (and I think what I have recommended in the past) 
1) Increase the DP cost of PPD and BDD to offset increase power.
2) Hybrid spell list model: 3 base lists pick 2 lists from list and then pick 4 others from general list and some of them cost 2 picks.   
3) Have list of spell lists to pick from and not allow just any list selected
4) If you use spend DP get rank vs spend DP vs roll for block of spells (I forget the actual name after all this time) require things such as equal rank is cleric ceremonies list to spell rank cast.
5) I require a number of ranks in religion lore (RMSS) up to rank 10 to give the caster knowledge in their deity but as I said above RM2/C lesser DP allotment makes this small offset potentially problematic.
6) You should also have a very clear idea as to what the profession is about and tailor the skill cost accordingly with the end question being asked, Have I created a super profession to rule them all?


MDC   

[markc]

A couple of things I forgot:
1) RM2/C has a lot of options and those options can greatly affect general power levels, so you above change may not be so unbalancing depending on other rule options you use. ie a while ago I was talking to a person who played in a RM2 game in which pure arms PC's had Body Dev in the 600-800 range and spell casters had x10 more PP than that.
2) Terry Amthor (Sp?) said in his Shadow World games he let characters switch professions as needed/desired, if this is so in your game it can lead to imbalance as it gives players the option to simply pick and chose various abilities they like in RM2/C.  (I am in the group that uses professions as genetic templates and not simply your ability to focus on skills when at a job.)


MDC   

[brole]

You can also add balance by altering level bonuses, if you think your Archmage is too powerful. Or restrict the spell lists available or make B,D picks A,C instead.

[PiXeL01]

Well he would be limited to Essence lists as there are no Hybrid users at all. That was partly the reason for Open/Closed being 1/* and other base lists being 2/*.

The Magician’s normal base list would be available to all Essence users though only through A, C etc picks

[markc]

In general (as I have not looked at the list in quite a while) the Magician Base Lists are some of the most coveted in the game, so you are adding the possibility of adding healing from the Channeling realm to that power and this causes balance issues (again depending on the options you have selected in RM2 this may be more unbalanced then other things or less unbalanced)


You might want to look at the RMSS Channeling Companion for a god of all elements for a guide on spell lists vs using the some of the most powerful in the base game.


Note: Your term of "cleric" may be confusing me as the term means they have access to channeling spell lists and that is one of the issues I see.


Issues I still See:
No other Hybrids: IMHO this makes the profession even more powerful.
Pick 4 from spell list vs 6 base lists: IMHO, this is very powerful and in general losing 2 base lists is not a big deal in most games (ie in more video game type games it becomes very unbalancing fast) 
RM2/C no Combat Styles: IIRC RM2/C has no combat styles that can provide some balance to the pure arms to spell caster divide, but if you have pulled over the combat style system from RMSS in the MAC it might be less of an issue.
DP cost of skills: In general other skill cost if significantly increased could/might offset the imbalance I think will occur.
Spell Lists in General: Most professions have 4 good spell lists (lists that people take regularly) and 2 lists that are ok or they do not take, so you only 4 base lists idea is not that much of a drawback IMO. 

Possibility of Working:
1) If you used Terrys every one can switch into every profession anytime and provide the profession to every player for free. In general this is a vastly different type of game then most people play.
[2) It could work over a small range of levels and be unbalanced at other levels, if you limit your game to those levels it would be fine.

MDC

[markc]

In the past IIRC the spell lists you proposed the new profession to pick from were those from the RM2 EC, is that still the case?
If so I think it is very powerful and possibly unbalancing depending on what other RM2/C options you have selected to play with.


MDC

[PiXeL01]

Please apologies my late response.

I’m working on my Dark Sun conversion again, a setting where Essence users are hunted as their magic is fueled by life, the gods are either dead or have abandoned the planet and Psionic powers are common. The planet is a barren wasteland caused by the wanton use of Essence magic.
Instead of gods the Prime elements offer powers to those willing to worship them and bring back their presence to the dustball. Each cleric worships a single elemental force and tries to further that element’s agenda on the planet.

It’s still very much WIP and I have made some changes since the initial attempt.
I don’t have access to Elemental Companion any longer but even back then I did not want to use it as I found it very one dimensional in terms of lists iirc.

Below are the lists I thought so to set for the clerics. Yes, that means there’ll be the possibility to have a character flinging fireballs and healing.
Cleric base lists:
Air
Air Forms (RC VII)
Elemental Summons (RC II)
Wind Law (SL)

Earth
Earth Forms (RC VII)
Earth Law (SL)
Earth Ways (can’t remember where I found this more than a decade ago)
Elemental Summons (RC II)

Fire
Elemental Summons (RC II)
Fire Forms (RC VII)
Fire Law (SL)

Water
Elemental Summons (RC II)
Liquid Alteration (SL)
Water Forms (RC VII)
Water Law (SL)

At first I thought to abolish all Essence and Mentalism users, pool all lists and then have a generalist profession for those two realms. Now though I’m more in the field of leaving all professions as specialists and then have a generalist as well with access to all base lists but at a cost, the reason for this thread in the first place.
As for that cost, Spell Law already includes optional rules for costs to learn others’ base lists. I may have read that table wrong initially as maybe my costs would be too low for the Magician’s lists for all other Essence users. Maybe Hybrid costs in this area would be better meaning 4/* for A picks (1-5 lvl) 5/* for C picks (6-10) however maybe just 5/* to keep it simple.

Still, it leaves me with the issue of the generalist. Still thinking about that one.

With the abolishment of Hybrid users I had to use users here and there and even change realms for other professions.

Anyways everything is in this doc:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o3S2cIUswlxV3P0JrCh8WI8JvaQI1Ev1pdqa8nvCvno/edit

[Hurin]

Was that you that made the Dark Sun conversion for RMSS? It apparently was created in Budapest in 2001. The author is listed as 'Conan'... I always wondered who did that.

Anyhoo, I actually think the Elemental Companion does kind of what you're trying to do. Its spell lists tend to focus on one element (fire or wind or ice or whatever) just like the ones for the 'Clerics' in Dark Sun do. The EC seems to already have done a lot of the work for you.

As for the costs, yes, you are right that Spell Law gives costs for learning other classes' base lists (e.g. 3/* for base list of your own realm), though it does offer this only as an option, not the norm.

[markc]

PiXel01,
Thanks for the context as it makes a lot more clear.


1) Providing a set of 4 lists picked by you is different then pick any 4 spell lists from a large list. The issues we discussed in the past were some of the powerful lists in the RM2 EC combinations. 
2) RMSS/FRP EC: F&I has done something close to what you are suggesting and I think would help you out a lot. You would just need to create the profession DP cost part. (I am fairly sure about this but you may want to ask someone who has easy access to their books/PDF as mine are unavailable at the moment.)
3) Do you have access to the RM2 SUC? IIRC there are some other spell list in there that might help.
4) Their was also a setting book for RMSS (do not remember the name right now) in which the unlife (essence and vampires) set in North America) that had some rules that might be of help. But you may want to ask in the RMSS form as it has been a long time since I read the book.




In general I think you need to play test and iron problems out because that is where issues are typically found. I would run some shortened test games at levels 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 30 and see how the balance is among all the professions.


MDC

[markc]

The books were on my shelf in plain sight so here is some additional info,
1) RMSS Setting book: Shades of Darkness (very interesting spell list for population growth, IIRC based on some from the RM2 SUC)
2) RMSS/FRP Elemental Companion: Fire and ICE does a very good job (IMHO) of providing a balanced version of what you are trying to do but uses 2 triad (groups of 3) elements. In general I have found the material a lot more balanced in terms of game impact then RM2 EC
2a) (After a very quick look at the book) What I think I would do is if you use the RMSS/FRP EC:F&I as your basis I would either allow healing or summoning as base lists and the other as other base list options. ie the 6 base lists as written in the book +4 open and closed or 5 base lists +5 healing lists.


IIRC you love Dark Sun, which I loved when I read the setting but every time I have GM or played in the setting that excitement has not shown itself during play. ie a lot of the story elements (drama text) just did not translate to actual game play for the groups I GMed or played in.   


MDC

[Hurin]

I never looked at the Shades of Darkness book, but that does sound pretty cool! I might check it out.

BTW, anyone know why Paizo is listing Rolemaster stuff on their site? https://paizo.com/products/btpy8oil?Rolemaster-Third-Edition-RPG-Shades-of-Darkness

[PiXeL01]

Hurin - no I did not make the 300+ page conversion which contains so many rules from the rule books, although I did make the eight page version for RM2/C found in the vault which I’m hoping to improve on now or again.

markc - I can see where you are coming from. I have tried running Dark Sun before but it was only one semester so the campaign never got off the ground. If it doesn’t work this time around either I’d think of something else.

I do have access to SUC actually and some of what I am trying to do with metalism is inspired by that book.
I did look into Shades of Darkness, hoping for gems to use.

Thank you for the other advice. I’ll take a look at Ice & Fire.
>>>
It’s funny though. I spend so much time on magic and Both spell casters are Semi mentalism users ...

Thanks again!

[jdale]

BTW, anyone know why Paizo is listing Rolemaster stuff on their site? https://paizo.com/products/btpy8oil?Rolemaster-Third-Edition-RPG-Shades-of-Darkness

They were a gaming store before they created Pathfinder. Not much ICE stock though: https://paizo.com/companies/ironCrownEnterprises

[markc]

I am glad you have access to RMSS/FRP EC:F&I as I was trying to figure out what to do if you asked for the spell lists associated with the professions and who you should contact to get that info.


I do not remember the elemental part of DS well and if it would be a good fit for the two triad of elements that are presented in EC:F&I but I do think in general it is a more balanced version to work from then trying to include all of the various elements in the RM2 EC.
But I do love the RM2 EC and it has given me many great ideas to work with.


MDC

[Hurin]

They were a gaming store before they created Pathfinder. Not much ICE stock though: https://paizo.com/companies/ironCrownEnterprises

I did not know that. Thanks!

[PiXeL01]

I saw Fire and Ice on Drivethurpg and decided it’s worth the purchase. Initial glance is very interesting