Author Topic: Updating ROC for IP Issues  (Read 1929 times)

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Offline markc

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Updating ROC for IP Issues
« on: August 09, 2020, 06:48:37 PM »
It has been a while since I was here last and I have been wondering if the Rules of Conduct has been changed to protect ICE's Intellectual Property (IP) regarding post in the ICE Forum?
That is to say I have seen in other companies products things that were posted here and the other company publishes the info in their products at a later date. Some of the specific ideas I have seen traps, magic items, rules to solve game rule problems and/or other basic/advanced game issues.   


Poster Id Update:
One thing you could do is require all posters/accounts to list if they work for another game and/or RPG company or are a RPG freelancer and have some sort of graphic to let other posters easily know that they are.
Why? IMHO it is important who are the possible people who might be using the ICE Forums as a "crowd source" method to build their companies games and or solve problems they then profit off of.


Limit Who can view specific areas:
The reason you want to limit the ability to view specific areas is to make sure that the viewer is logged in to an account and thus agrees to the ROC and any other rules pertaining to ICE.
You can still have some common areas that anyone can view that provide basic info/social info/company info/etc. 


MDC
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Offline jdale

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Re: Updating ROC for IP Issues
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2020, 10:26:32 PM »
There are specific terms given in the playtesting boards, you'll see them in the same sticky threads where the books can be downloaded.

Speaking as an individual (not for ICE) who is not a lawyer, my impression is that it is not too hard to protect specific text from being copied, but it's harder to own a general idea or even a game mechanic. I'm not aware of any instances of the sort of thing you are referring to, so I can't begin to even guess whether they are over those lines or run against the terms given on the playtesting boards (if relevant). If you have a specific concern, you might let Nicholas know the details.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Updating ROC for IP Issues
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2020, 04:14:42 AM »
First, you cannot copyright an idea. Second, as RM started as a supplement to AD&D, IMHO, it's very hypocritical to try to "prevent people to use  the ICE Forums as a "crowd source" method to build their companies games and or solve problems they then profit off of."
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Offline Aspire2Hope

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Re: Updating ROC for IP Issues
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2020, 06:54:57 AM »
Simple rule of IP - DO NOT PUBLISH IT IF YOU PLAN TO SELL IT!

Step 1 Protect IP by registering it (TM CC Patent)
Step 2 Publish to required standard
Step 3 Reap rewards or not
Step 4 Spend an awful lot of time/money chasing individuals for small amounts of money - unless step 3 was really successful.

Offline markc

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Re: Updating ROC for IP Issues
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2020, 02:00:06 PM »
OLF,
It seems the quote is not working right now for me but,


Note: Sorry being constantly disturbed while trying to type some may not make the most sense.


1) I have seen a few game companies and other companies have rules that state all content on their forums are property of that company and as such if an idea or solution to an issue is presented there it is the property of that company. So if another person is using it or publishing it it could potentially be an issue.


2) Crowded Sourcing: Can be very helpful but those helping a person to product material to sell is vastly different that helping someone in their home game.
IMHO, the second is being helpful the later can be seen as stealing, ie just because I am building a house and see some lumber sitting unattended generally I cannot take it and use it. 
The same can at times be said of ideas in specific circumstances. 


In general I know a few people who would be disappointed at not being told they were being used as a crowed source or were being used for material for other games then what they were commenting on. 


I can say that I was amazed when a friend of mine showed me some beta rules in the past year how many of the core ideas were talked about on the ICE Forums and even a house rule I talked about showed in in that game. In general I have no problem helping out home games but I am not interested in providing content that others can potentially make a lot of money for.


In general I can also say that I think forum members would like to know if that ICE's stance is to allow "anyone" to use the ideas and or comments they provide on the boards for profit. The reason why is that it a different type of forum then general ICE game help.


MDC


 
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

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Re: Updating ROC for IP Issues
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2020, 02:16:14 PM »
Aspire2Hope:
2nd try first post lost
Note: Constantly interrupted so may be some errors.


In general the issue can be two sided, by that I mean what if a authors for a company take other ideas and then their product becomes very popular? Then the company(s) who the info was taken from seeks legal action and it does produce a large windfall for the idea loser and a large loss for the company who took the idea. It could even potentially cause the other company to go out of business.


As I think I said about, I know quite a few posters that do not mind helping ICE out but are not interested in helping out some other game companies that compete against ICE.
MDC     
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

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Re: Updating ROC for IP Issues
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2020, 03:37:56 PM »
I to make it very simple it comes down to this,
Why would ICE want to help for free, people/companies who compete against them and thus potentially reduce their sales and profits?


I can see the people who would like it, and those are the people who are profiting off it. ie if I was another game company I would love it if other companies provided for free or made it easy to make my product better and increase my sales.


Personal Example(s):
I know these is not exactly the same but it can be seen as close,
1) An employee only stole $20 per day so in their mind it was not theft. But over the course of a month and year you can see how the money adds up and potentially cause other problems. Also this was just one employee, think if multiple employees were doing this and how could affect a company.
2) I met a person who said they only stole about $5-$10 of food a day from a convenience store and the amount was small so they should not be prosecuted and in fact should be able to continue to do so because they also spend money there. Simply small thefts in their eyes should be free.


In general the same principles can apply to Int Prop vs phys prop.


MDC



Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline jdale

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Re: Updating ROC for IP Issues
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2020, 07:13:01 PM »
If someone comes here and copies what you wrote and puts it word for word into their own product, that's a copyright violation regardless of what policies ICE sets. There doesn't need to be a rule here to make it wrong.

If they take a general idea, I don't know that there is anything that could be done about it regardless of what policies ICE posts. That said, if you think there are specific infringements that cross the line, again, I would say let Nicholas know what you are looking at.

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Offline markc

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Re: Updating ROC for IP Issues
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2020, 07:51:51 PM »
jdale,
Thanks, last year I sent both Nicholas and Terry a PM and then after not hearing something sent a PM to John who said he would look into it.


But again in general I do not know of a company that would let their assets aid another company who are in direct competition with them and not take some basic measures to prevent it from happening.


MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Updating ROC for IP Issues
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2020, 02:20:14 AM »
The contributors to this forum are not ICE's "assets", but rather are customers (or for this incarnation of ICE, perhaps only potential customers). ICE has no more inherent right to profit from their ideas than anyone else does. Trying to claim the contents of posts on your website is an excellent way to drive traffic to an alternative site.

As was pointed out already, ICE itself has benefited over the decades by borrowing ideas from elsewhere.* Game design is an iterative process, and borrowing ideas goes back and forth all over the place. And it is also difficult to identify borrowing from simply finding the same solution to the same problem, as people can and do independently arrive at the same idea. Unless you get more specific, it is impossible to judge whether you are jumping to conclusions or whether there is actually a suspicious parallel to something posted here.

* - Critical hit and fumble charts were being created by fans for D&D before Arms Law appeared. Many, many of the structural features of the game came out of modeling (A)D&D back in the day. Indeed, even today, suggestions made to ICE for RMU have been argued based partly on "how D&D does it".
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Offline markc

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Re: Updating ROC for IP Issues
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2020, 01:50:11 PM »

Sorry interrupted a lot again so my train of thought or language may be off.

A) Provided examples to John@ICE and other company:
I am not going to provided any info on what I sent to John@ICE and the other company as what does/does not/will or will not happen. My reasoning is this, I noticed somethings when I was an ICE moderator and thought both ICE and the other company should be informed in case there was a possibility of any legal issues and in hopes if there were legal issues they could be resolved sooner rather than later.


B) Why I asked about ROC changes:
When communicating with John I told him about Paizo's ROC and how anything posted became Paizo's IP that they could use. John thought this was an idea ICE should look into and since I had not been on the site in a while and did not see a pop up stating that the ROC had been updated I was curious as to what if anything has happened or will happen on this issue.


C) Paizo example:
For example I myself posted on a thread about how I would deal with Gnolls PC's and NPC interactions in a game if a Gnoll army was invading. I myself thought of examples from WWII and other conflicts as well as other reported examples from history and posted my thoughts.
My post was included (essentially intact) in the free book helping people prep for the new adventure path. Which I knew could happen as I read Paizos ROC policy on forum posts.


D) IP Yesterday vs IP Today:
I think we can all agree that IP in the 70's and 80's vs IP today is vastly different and what companies try and leverage financially is different today vs yesterday. I mentioned to John the Paizo example and again thought that ICE may want to include such a ROC update to stay current with what other companies forums were doing.


E) Past Examples:
I am not going to do past examples except to say that when I was a mod there was a couple of times I was concerned with ICE IP as well as crowd sourcing. I put forth my thoughts and evidence to the person above me as it was not my responsibility as a moderator to deal with those issues. As I understood it it, my job was to report things such as that to ICE and have them deal with it.
Even though I said I was not going to provide specific examples I think one classic is important, that was a combat system that had rules from a bunch of different systems mashed up into one system but the text was copied from all the other sources. I reported this to the person above me and they took over for me.


MDC


     
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.