Topic: Ulorian Military

[Dr Jim]

Reading the Jamain & Xa-ar source books has really got me fired up for running a campaign in the area. I've been thinking about the Quaidu occupational forces, the incoming Ulorians and their military structure. In my mind I picture the Quaidu as an organised military society; professional, stoic and a bit dour (similar in some ways to the Romans) . I'm wondering what other peoples take on them is? I am thinking of how they would interact with their Lugroki allies (begrudgingly, contemptuously?). I imagine that the occupational forces would have a different relationship compared to the retreating army.
I was also wondering how people incorporate magical support into military units (not just the Ulorians, but it is those I am thinking about)? I can't imagine that every squad will have a Magician, Sorcerer or someone similar attached directly. I can see specialist support units existing (healers & lay healers in particular). Any ideas or suggestions are welcome

[Malim]

Normal army is same as this worlds normal army.. and special groups with magicians etc is compared maybe to SOF?

[Hurin]

War Law does give rules for spellcaster units of 10-20 casters, as well as support units such as medical units that include casters. It also generally treats PC spellcasters as leaders with their own counters.

[jdale]

What's the relationship between magic and society? If, for example, magic is controlled by powerful magic guilds, they will probably form their own elite units with an arms contingent whose job is largely protecting the mages. That could also happen with religious casters if they are an elite.

If magic is commonplace and easier to teach, the military will probably train their own mages and they are more likely to be embedded in many units sort of how we might assign a heavy weapons person to a unit. On the religious side, you'll have military chaplains and such. If there's a state religion, you might have a priest of some sort associated with every unit of a certain size or larger.

If magic is disfavored or untrusted, mages are likely to be concentrated because regular soldiers may have morale issues working alongside them. That could also happen if magic is unsafe, e.g. the major magical battlefield tactic is summoning semi-controlled creatures.

Etc.

[Jenkyna]

I can see specialist support units existing (healers & lay healers in particular). Any ideas or suggestions are welcome

Would the Ulor forces even offer healing to the rank and file? This borrows from Tolkein a bit, but I tend to see these sorts of types as having nothing but contempt for weakness and infirmity. The Lugroki in particular I see as analogous with Orcs in the sense that they are the product of breeding pits, and a have might makes right culture in which the weak get torn apart by the strong.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Like other here, it depends upon the availability and acceptance of Magic within the society that raises the military units.

Regardless, the "higher level" the magic-user is, the greater the chance that it will either be a Leader or that it will be treated as a "Special Weapon" rather than as a group of high level casters operating as a unit. It's a "don't put all your eggs in one basket approach" to warfare.... like modern day carrier groups, the "unit" will likely consist of a single high level caster, accompanied by a few apprentices and select bodyguards. Whether that should be treated as a "military unit" within that society is another matter.

Where Magic is commonplace, then it's highly likely that units themselves may well all have access to a wide range of low-level magic, this covers a wide range of professions being included within the ranks, who are only really restricted to the weapons training, armour worn, and tactics employed by the unit as a whole, as to whether the caster could practice their specific craft whilst in battle.  Out of battle I can easy imagine the unit having access to low-level healing, herbs, informational spells etc. But whether a high level caster would be "wasted" within such a unit is another matter... at least willingly and knowingly... Most individuals would be reluctant to deliberately stifle their own abilities, and their leaders even less likely to expose such assets to harm.

[Voriig Kye]

When we played that campaign (RMFRP), I determined that all Quaidu have some basic spell knowledge (1 or 2 ranks in spell lore), although most would be non spell users, using the Races and Cultures Littoral culture meant they got 2 ranks in spells, which were normally assigned to Attack Avoidance, to give them an edge in battle.

I didn't think of special magical units, but more like one or two pure spell casting supporting the warriors that were on patrol, depending on the importance of the town/region.

So most of the fights were against Quaidu Fighters, once a group had 4 or 5 of those I would add a "Frost Weaver troop", which were Ice mages (from Fire & Ice), and in a special adventure against the power of nightmares I added the Scaler troop (Astrologers obtaining channeling PPs from Scalu). For a more high stakes fight I added the Dark Mage (they worked for Ulor but were from Jameri stock), and they were once hunted by an Arms Mistress (Quaidu ArmsMaster).

So, most Ulor troops in Xa-Ar were Quaidu, patrolling and hunting "dangerous criminals". The Lugroki only appeared when Ulor decided to invade a town with a full strike force, and they were had simpler combat styles, relying more on numbers and brute force.

Ok that went for longer than I expected, I hope it gives an idea of how we played it.

[Hurin]

Sounds cool.Voriig! That is the sort of thing I would do too.

Even if magic users are relatively rare, there are different ways to use them, just like tanks in WW2. You could see them as primarily infantry support, and disperse them throughout your forces so that each infantry unit has a couple, or you could go full Blitzkrieg and concentrate them in elite units to be the tip of the spear.

[metallion]

Before you can establish how Ulorian society works, you have to establish how Ulorian society works.  Standing national armies are a very recent invention among humans.  There's every opportunity to get very creative.

We needn't flatten Ulori attitudes the way Tolkien did:  we're not trying to replication Roman Catholic theology, and Lorgalis isn't a stand-in for Satan's bestie.  Indeed, Lorgalis is a unique personage in Kulthea, and a society under his control should be similarly unique, reflecting him. 

He would, of course, stand over all.  But the strong do not rule the weak simply because they're strong.  They rule because they offer the weak protection, and not only from themselves.   Lorgalis is one of the most accomplished spell casters since the First Age, and such heights are only achieved if they grow out of an academic tradition -- they also give rise to them.

We see that other Elven societies are organized around Houses, it's not unlikely to see something of the like in Ulor -- though Dyari are more strict in their hierarchical orderings than Loari or Linaeri.

Thus, at the top is the House of Lorgalis, which directly controls the Dyari Great Houses of Ulor.  Those houses jockey for position with regard to one another, perhaps harboring the hope of being able to challenge Lorgalis someday.  Lorgalis would be aware of this and plot to keep any of them from growing too powerful, even as he needs to keep them strong enough to maintain his realm against that which attacks from outside or beneath.

Does it start to become clear why Lorgalis finds it so easy to manipulate the politics of Jaiman?  He's scarcely unpracticed at this.

The Great Houses establish position through the individual power of it's members, replicating the fundamtal Dyari dynamic:  The strong protect the weak in exchange for service.  They have a thousand ways of determining who is more powerful, and by how much, and a dozen words translated as "spouse" by those who don't know to distinguish between "senior spouse through mutual voluntary contract," "senior spouse through personal conflict," "junior spouse by concession from one House to another" etc.  A House is made up of Clans, and Clans of Families, each replicating the power structure on smaller and smaller scales until we are looking at individual Dyari. 

Each Dyar seeks to maximize their power, as expressed by their personal ability and the resources they control.  This Dyari Magician establishes a College where others may practice their Art.  That Dyari warrior secures the loyalty of a platoon of Qaidu or Lugrok - or perhaps tames and rides a Wyvern.  These cadres all come together when needed - by order of the Head of the Clan, or even Lorgalis himself, to accomplish a military goal.

[Dr Jim]

Thanks everyone for the great replies. I like the idea of magic users being less common, more of a specialist weapon for deployment by high command (or the high commander themselves).
One idea I have been mulling over is having a political officer class within the army. This is completely non-canonical and stems from a few of Terry's comments; there are no absolute good or bad guys in Shadow World, and the Quaidu are not inherently evil. I picture the Quaidu mindset as being "us against the world" , with "us" being inherently superior. The army would focus on being the best military they could be, and the political officers would ensure that they remain loyal to Lorgalis. Something along the lines of Romans with commissars.

[Hurin]

Standing national armies are a very recent invention among humans. 

So true. That is something my students in medieval history often have difficulty appreciating: there essentially were no national standing armies in Western Europe between the fall of Rome and the late Middle Ages. Some people just can't imagine that.

Rhakhaan on the other hand actually does have a standing army.

[Dr Jim]

Very good point Metallion, I would say the majority of armies would be of the feudal type you describe.

[Jenkyna]

We needn't flatten Ulori attitudes the way Tolkien did:  we're not trying to replication Roman Catholic theology, and Lorgalis isn't a stand-in for Satan's bestie.  Indeed, Lorgalis is a unique personage in Kulthea, and a society under his control should be similarly unique, reflecting him. 

Tolkein didn't like allegory, so while Middle Earth is a fundamentally Catholic work by his own admission, he also clearly stated that he did not incorporate Catholic theology into the setting itself. I would however agree with something that a literature professor once said to Issac Asimov on the subject: 'Authors can't help but create allegory because their own world view influences their work regardless of their intent.' That is of course paraphrased.

Tolkein did have a clearly defined sense of good and evil, both real world and spiritual, and even if he avoided deliberate Catholic allegory his concept of good and evil became a core element of his creation.

I tend to see the Lugroki as very violent and brutish; losses get replaced through reproduction not rehabilitation. To be certain the Dyari would be much more civilized, and are likely reaping the rewards of being the upper echelon of Ulor society. Undoubtedly they would have healers. I don't think they would necessarily share them with other races.

I think to some degree it would boil down to how common is magic. I don't see ShadowWorld spellcasters being as common as they are in Faerun, but certainly magic is more common than Middle Earth. Everyone is free to interpret the setting how they wish, so if in your setting almost everyone knows a few spells, then healing magic may be plentiful. On the other hand, if you have 1 healer per 100 casualties, then only the elite are getting healed. 

[jdale]

Evil cultures might still have a place for healing. It's a great opportunity for offerings of blood (bloodletting, leechcraft) and pain, both of which might be willingly offering up by the "patient" to whatever dark powers they have loyalty to. It's also a good opportunity for a shaman or priesthood to establish dependency. Maybe only the most loyal or fervent are treated, or maybe patients must swear oaths of service for a certain amount of time. If you have political/war leaders with close relationships to shamans/priests (each offers legitimacy to the other), healing those leaders is an act of maintaining one's own power. Healing is a powerful political tool whether on the scale of national politics or tribal politics.

The tools of healing -- anatomy, herbs, drugs -- also have other applications for murder, torture, intoxication, visionary trances, poisoning. A shaman healer may learn healing without it being their primary focus of study.

In our RMSS campaign, we saw some occasional use of Healer magic to transfer wounds not to the healer but to others. Ritual sacrifice by transferring wounds from some patients to a ritual scapegoat who receives lethal damage seems entirely in the spirit of evil. And then there is the question whether the decision of who lives and who dies is made by the healer or by the deity; if the patients believe the latter (whether it is true or not), submitting to healing is an act of submission to the will of the deity, and being healed is a sign that -- for now -- you retain the favor of that deity, and a reminder of what happens when that favor is lost. A very powerful message.

[Hurin]

Evil cultures might still have a place for healing. It's a great opportunity for offerings of blood (bloodletting, leechcraft) and pain, both of which might be willingly offering up by the "patient" to whatever dark powers they have loyalty to. It's also a good opportunity for a shaman or priesthood to establish dependency.

Oooh, that's evil; and so of course entirely appropriate! Very clever.

[Jenkyna]

The tools of healing -- anatomy, herbs, drugs -- also have other applications for murder, torture, intoxication, visionary trances, poisoning. A shaman healer may learn healing without it being their primary focus of study.

That idea does fit the Priest of the Unlife pretty well, and Lorgalis is about the most Unlife allied member of the Ahrenreth.

Ritual sacrifice by transferring wounds from some patients to a ritual scapegoat who receives lethal damage seems entirely in the spirit of evil.

That's an interesting idea for a modified healer list.

One of the reasons I am thinking that a low healer to patient ratio means that only the elite get healing is power points, and the need for some healers to transfer the injury to themselves and then heal themself over time. You could potentially circumvent those requirements by creating an "evil" list that allows transfer of the injury of another for a lower PP cost. Then you would expand the number of people at the top who get healing, while punishing those who fail in battle.