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Offline Thot

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Limiting magic in your game world
« on: December 02, 2019, 01:24:30 PM »
It has been argued that in order to keep magic levels low in a RoleMaster game world, level distribution should be weighted towards the low end as well.

I would like to propose a different solution: Simply limit the amount of magic-using professions available in the game world. So imagine, for instance, a kingdom with about 1 million inhabitants. If the professions were more or less evenly distributed, you'd end up with hundreds of thousands of spell casters. Sure, if you then have the kind of level distribution that would grow out of the XP guidelines in the RAW, then you'd have incredible amounts of magic. But the thing is, even with a level distribution that limits most people to level 5 or so, that would result in enormous amounts of magic in everybody's daily life.

But what if the magic-using professions are extremely rare? If there are only 10 people with magic professions in all of the kingdom? One Magician, one Sorceror, one Cleric, one Paladin, etc.? Of course, this is an extreme example, but it should get the point across: Magic (or at least, the ability to easily learn magic) needs not be universally available. It can be severely limited in a game world, and if you want a low-magic setting, this is how I'd recommend to do it: Do not artificially limit levels by fiddling with the XP rules, but simply make magic hard to learn for most people. You can still allow each and every player to play his favorite spellcaster type; this limitation is for NPC's only.

In terms of keeping the setting low-magic, such an approach works much better and makes even the lower level spellcasters more special. It is also a lot more fluid and adaptable over the course of a campaign if you choose a number of NPC spellcasters that is just high enough so that the PC's will usually not meet or know all of the spellcasters.


Offline Peter R

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2019, 09:38:50 AM »
My campaign is extremely low magic. One of the unintended consequences of this is that every single player wanted to be a spell caster. The logic is impeccable. PCs are meant to be outstanding individuals so it is perfectly reasonable that they could come from those rare individuals, the spell casters.

A low magic game also means that those lucky few with magic have a huge advantage over those without. That is another reason why spell casting professions become much more popular and desirable in a low magic game.

The only game in which there is little or no advantage to being a spell caster is a low level hack and slash campaign. In those, characters are likely to die before they gain any of the spells that players love so much and casting times remain long and slow.

I am currently playing in a high magic game and there is an almost mirror image of the logic but again everyone wanted to be a spell caster. We were told the game would be a high level (accelerated advancement for the first five to seven levels), high magic game in which even uneducated peasants would have at least cantrips. Here again everyone wanted to be a caster, because not being a caster would put you at a massive disadvantage.

I have addressed the low magic issue by using the RAW spell gain rules. 5% per rank, no bonuses at all on spell gain rolls. I also have not given out magical items. This has had the effect of limiting the number of lists that can be learned because they are too expensive in DPs and it has limited the number of available powerpoints in the group, making them have to fall back on mundane means to solve many tasks for lack of PPs.
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Offline Thot

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2019, 10:23:50 AM »
That is indeed an interesting consequence one needs to keep in mind... maybe if one does want a TRULY low magic game, disallowing spell casters for PC's is required; or maybe one should put a price tag in background option on spellcaster professions.


Offline Fingolfin80

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2019, 10:45:08 AM »
It has been argued that in order to keep magic levels low in a RoleMaster game world, level distribution should be weighted towards the low end as well.

I would like to propose a different solution: Simply limit the amount of magic-using professions available in the game world. So imagine, for instance, a kingdom with about 1 million inhabitants. If the professions were more or less evenly distributed, you'd end up with hundreds of thousands of spell casters. Sure, if you then have the kind of level distribution that would grow out of the XP guidelines in the RAW, then you'd have incredible amounts of magic. But the thing is, even with a level distribution that limits most people to level 5 or so, that would result in enormous amounts of magic in everybody's daily life.

But what if the magic-using professions are extremely rare? If there are only 10 people with magic professions in all of the kingdom? One Magician, one Sorceror, one Cleric, one Paladin, etc.? Of course, this is an extreme example, but it should get the point across: Magic (or at least, the ability to easily learn magic) needs not be universally available. It can be severely limited in a game world, and if you want a low-magic setting, this is how I'd recommend to do it: Do not artificially limit levels by fiddling with the XP rules, but simply make magic hard to learn for most people. You can still allow each and every player to play his favorite spellcaster type; this limitation is for NPC's only.

In terms of keeping the setting low-magic, such an approach works much better and makes even the lower level spellcasters more special. It is also a lot more fluid and adaptable over the course of a campaign if you choose a number of NPC spellcasters that is just high enough so that the PC's will usually not meet or know all of the spellcasters.

I always use a similar aproach. Magic is not very common and that's the reason why it's precious. In my worlds mages and mentalists keep their secrets jealously and only accept to train a very dedicate disciple and demand something in return which is not merely gold, but bobedience for life. Priests are common, but they are not cleric, only more saint among them, which are few. The greatest limitations i put on the semi spell users, I guess. Paladins (and Rangers, because I treat them as the paladins of a nature god) are the choosen of a deity, there's one in a generation.  The only magents are trained by a secret guild of assassins and spies and have severe limitations on their power (people do not have magic by their own, they need to gain access to it, and magents do so by using a drug, which is addictive). I don't run dabblers and bards, because I used their template for two setting-specific classes, nor monks or warrior monk, because I feel they fit only in an oriental style campaign.
My players can do any class they want (except for monks) but they take the drowback also, wich is very interesting and produces many adventure hooks.
I also limit magic objects, I give my PCs few powerful items at a certain point in the game, but they need to quest for them, no one sells magic items because they are too rare and precious: who would sell what only a king could buy?
It's not exactly low magic, because who can have access to it can become very powerful just like in an high magic campaign, but those people are few. Since I lack a better term, I usually call this a "sword & sorcery" style.

Offline Peter R

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2019, 10:53:18 AM »
Mechanically, I would agree, no PC spell casters and then all the magic is in the power of the GM.

But,... I was playing a thief a few years ago. When I hit about 15th level, maybe a bit before I started putting a single rank into spell lists each level. It cost me 12DP a time and I was only learning 1st to 5th level spells (Mentalism). Long before then I had started requesting Daily Spell items when we were dividing up treasure. I said to the group that it made sense for me to have them. As a skills based character the more spells I could 'cast' even if it was from an item rather than from a list the more rounded out the group would be. I even had a power point mutiplier. By the end of the campaign I had 70+ PP which when combined with spells only 1st to 5th went a long way. I had learned 4 lists plus had a variety of other spells I could call upon. I could go invisible, teleport, cast Suggestion as well as some healing magics on top of my lists.

The point is that in a low magic game, a little magic can go a long way. Anyone could learn magic if they were prepared to spend the DPs and wait for random chance to serve up a list.

We got to very high level (20+) so the effect was magnified but it illustrates the point that it is not easy to limit magic in Rolemaster.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2019, 11:35:47 AM »
To put it short and simple, in the world setting I had been working on most recently magic is dangerous to perform openly. I advised the players they would likely want to be a Semi-Spell user at most and that if they were to play a Pure-Caster things would be difficult for them. One player did come up with an idea to play a variant profession that dealt mainly with 'air' magic, which would limit public exposure however.
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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2019, 12:53:07 PM »
It has been argued that in order to keep magic levels low in a RoleMaster game world, level distribution should be weighted towards the low end as well.

I think it depends on how you define low level magic. The archetype for low magic levels is Middle Earth, where the only "Wizards" were Maia spirits, and where the magic of the other races generally took the form of imbuing your own power into created works; Fëanor with his Silmarils, Sauron with his Ring, etc. In Middle Earth there was a moral calculus in the way investing yourself into made works was seen as leading to evil. The Girdle of Melian, and the veil that protected Lorien where another kind of magic, but one seen as self-sacrificing and beneficial.

Lot of people prefer low level, low magic games, and there isn't just one right way of doing it. I would however suggest that if this is going to be some sort of artificially imposed constraint, there needs to a reason for it within the setting. E.g. high level magic users don't exist, because Sauron has had them all hunted down and killed so no one can challenge his power.

The setting will be more enjoyable to the players if there is a plot that supports the limitation. It can't be something arbitrary that serves no point beyond limiting what players are allowed to do, or it simply becomes a form of metagaming.

One of the most important factors imo is the players need to know about the limitation on professions / levels up-front, and be into playing in that sort of game.

Offline Siltoneous

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2019, 02:39:11 PM »
I personally dislike the outright ban of magical professions. It seems overly heavy handed and arbitrary, especially when at least half of the core professions are spell casters.  Besides, allowing a +5 or +10 weapon due to engineering and materials, but not due to 'magic' seems wrong.  Arthur C. Clarke's quote comes to mind: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Placing restrictions on it, in any number of ways, I find much easier to handle though. My current favorite is treating magic just like any other resource; limited.  Thus overuse causes regional depletion, and is something that must be managed/considered. Under this system you could easily have a setting where one city/region has basically no magic due to past overuse, whereas a newer (or strictly managed) city/region has plenty. Basically adopting the concept behind Larry Niven’s "The Magic Goes Away" setting. Of course there are other ways, such a Dragon Lines/Ley Lines.

Another way might be to consider coupling physical skills even more tightly to magical skills, weighing down forward progression ((example: GURPS Thaumatology: Magical Styles).  I've personally tied magical proficiency to specific magical languages, and the ranks therin.

On the other side of the coin, I've been investigating/thinking/researching the other side of magical usage; common and widespread.  Particularly in how common, normal people would harness, manage and use it like any other resource.  For example I can see cities in this setting having guilds of magical trades people; those who have magical aptitude, but simply don't have enough to do anything but mundane/extremely specialized magic.  A sewage guild for example, lamplighters guild, messenger's guild, firefighters guild, tailors who can keep treat garments to keep them clean (needing periodic refreshes).  PC's in this setting would then be those few who have more than a smattering of magical aptitude, due to any number of reasons (stats, cultural background, genetic makeup, etc..).
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Offline netbat

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2019, 04:39:15 PM »
I like using the SoHK environmental risk chart to help limit the overt use of magic in my world. If every additional spell has a good chance of causing the weather to get worse it not only gives an immediate reason for the players to limit their use but also provides a reason for cultural prohibitions/limits on magic. Most people, particularly farmers are not going to be happy with someone mucking about with the weather and will make their feeling clear on the matter. It leads to a world where magic may be very powerful and widespread, but very limited in use as casters need to decide if the benefit of the spell is worth the possible downsides of bad weather and angry mobs.
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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2019, 05:06:04 PM »
I personally dislike the outright ban of magical professions. It seems overly heavy handed and arbitrary, especially when at least half of the core professions are spell casters.

I tend to think that professions available should match the setting concept. Arbitrarily disallowing a profession is problematic, but disallowing a profession because it doesn't fit the setting makes sense. For example a I wouldn't allow European knight type professions in an Asian campaign setting that has no culture analogous to Europe.

Conversely European Knights would make sense in a Middle Eastern setting that had a history that included invasions akin to the Crusades.

I like using the SoHK environmental risk chart to help limit the overt use of magic in my world. If every additional spell has a good chance of causing the weather to get worse it not only gives an immediate reason for the players to limit their use but also provides a reason for cultural prohibitions/limits on magic.

That's very true of ShadowWorld, where magic can trigger flowstorms, and flowstorms can leave mages without power points for a period of time.

Offline Siltoneous

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2019, 09:42:12 PM »
I tend to think that professions available should match the setting concept. Arbitrarily disallowing a profession is problematic, but disallowing a profession because it doesn't fit the setting makes sense. For example a I wouldn't allow European knight type professions in an Asian campaign setting that has no culture analogous to Europe.

Conversely European Knights would make sense in a Middle Eastern setting that had a history that included invasions akin to the Crusades.

I agree totally that the professions need to match the setting.  However I'd argue that removing a profession (like European knight, Samurai, Houri, Astral Traveller,...) is entirely different than banning entire sets of professions (15 of the 20 core professions if you include Semi's). Not only do I see that destroying any implicit balancing/tradeoffs/calculations that's central to the entire RPG (as embodied by the choices of core professions), but I'd suspect it will cause a variety of strange balance issues and unintended consequences.  Peter's post earlier is a great example of that.

Hey, I could be wrong, and it might work beautifully.  Because at the end of the day the GM makes whatever call they make, and then judges the results.  As long as everyone's happy, great.  That said, I think it's amiss to not suggest there will be consequences of gutting the core rules (of any system) that much.  Both in immediate and long term ways, and that prudence might suggest caution.

(*) I'd argue it should actually be 15 (6 pure, 9 semi) of 19 professions, as in RM I've only ever seen one player choose a Layman like character.
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Offline Thot

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2019, 09:56:21 PM »
Another excellent way of making magic more scarce is to simply change the way or time period which regenerates power points. If power points do not regenerate fully in 24 hours, but at a rate of, for example, one point per sunrise, they will be a lot more reluctant to spend them - and if not, they will be simply forced to lay low later on.

In some settings, regenerating power points might also require some kind of action on the part of the caster - like meditation for the mentalist (in addition to sleep), praying for the channeling user (maybe even at a temple), or touching something like an earthnode for am essence caster.

Offline Jenkyna

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2019, 12:42:26 AM »
In some settings, regenerating power points might also require some kind of action on the part of the caster - like meditation for the mentalist (in addition to sleep), praying for the channeling user (maybe even at a temple), or touching something like an earthnode for am essence caster.

That's a pretty good idea. An essence user might replenish them through a magical ritual

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2019, 04:39:19 AM »
The most obvious way to limit magical professions is also the most logical: learning magic takes time, money, requires the brain for it and grants excessive power. As such, most probably in any medieval settings, only nobility (or religious figures) would have (easy, official) access to it, and only the very rich and quite intelligent people.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2019, 07:33:41 AM »
The most important thing to keep in mind is that all of the Professions in RM are optional.  Right off the bat, the GM can determine which professions exist in that gaming world and best suit the feel of the game.  This holds true in our gaming world.  The only professions allowed are from Elemental Companion and Alchemy Companion.   Based on the setting, the world is in the Renaissance period.  It's the Age of Enlightenment.  What passes for science has explained away all (almost all, we have scientists working on that) of what used to be called magic.  Mind control?  It is simply hypnosis.  Magic salve to cure burns?  Aloe.  Paralysis? The slime from a brightly colored tree frog, etc.

Alchemy was considered a legitimate science and to those ends, the new "alchemy" of this time period is Elementalism.

Magic items that are still around are rare and very valuable.  I guess it's similar to the Warhammer 40K universe where the great and powerful technology has been lost to the millennia and the secrets to recreate that technology are so highly coveted they are considered scared.  The quest for magic items in our gaming world is a great attraction and the desire to figure out how those magic items works or how to recreate them drives a lot of the campaigns we have.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2019, 09:45:40 PM »
Bear in mind that in many cultures, while there were those who made careers in magic or magic-related spheres, it was not uncommon for a peasant to know a simple charm or two. In our world, those little folk rituals had no power, but in a world where the priests perform miracles through channeling divine power instead of careful staging, where the curse of witch doctor has more than psychology behind it, where the angry wind just might actually be angry because it is an elemental spirit, then those little folk riturals might well be 1st or 2nd level spells handed down generation to generation.

There's a world of difference between a farmer with a handful of low-level spells and a professional spell-caster, just as there's a big difference between someone who can do some simple repair and construction around the home and a professional engineer. The former can be rather common, while the latter remains rare and capable of things of wonder.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2019, 11:41:00 PM »
Hmmm, some of the low level spells could be pretty subtle, too. Heal I (restores 5 hits) could be seen just as giving aid and comfort, given what RM hits represent (which includes injury but also a mix of exhaustion and demoralization). Stamina and Edgewalking are little physical boosts that could be seen as endurance and athleticism. Beast Lore and Plant Lore are boosts to lore skills. Protection I is a small incremental boost (+5 RR or +5 DB vs elemental attacks) that is not going to turn attacks aside, just make them slightly easier to withstand. Rain Prediction is closely related to what you can do with skill. Calm Self is obviously just affecting your own mental state. Sustain Self is self control and self discipline. Orientation is a sense of direction and Guess is just being lucky. Afterthoughts is good memory.

That's about a third of the open and closed channeling 1st and 2nd level spells that could easily be explained away as non-magical. Another batch directly have to do with magic (e.g. detect channeling) and would only have an effect if something magical is already going on. There are of course some lists that have totally obvious 1st level spells (e.g. Light I) but if you want magic to be present but hidden, there are plenty of options.

I've noted elsewhere that in our RMSS-to-RMU campaign, all the spells for dealing with undead and demons were thought of as prayers or even nursery rhymes, of at best symbolic value, because everyone knew there was no such thing as undead or demons. When that changed, those spells suddenly proved to be more important than anyone had thought.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2019, 04:40:18 PM »
The answer is culture.

Cultures determine access to information. Strong guilds will protect and guard it. Lack of literacy will contain it. Superstitions and religions will oppose it...or promote it. Perhaps a priest spells are not seen as magic, being invoked in the name of a gawd and probably a prayer too. 

RAW RM also uses stat requirements, and this will greatly limit a societies number of possible spell users. Social conditions will further limit who gets to develop their innate talent.  Really, in any totalitarian society, the majority of gifted souls, especially those mentally gifted over physically gifted, will never get a chance, unless they can apprentice or earn favor in some way, etc.

Hedge Wizard training package takes care of access, but not prejudiced. Considering how poorly adventuring 1st level magic users fare in melee, combat reduces numbers too. Thus a smart aspiring magic user might pick Cloistered Academic for a training package and retire to a teaching position at level one. SUCCESS!
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2019, 07:46:14 AM »
The answer is culture.
That is one possible answer, yes.

But it is first and foremost a possible answer to the question that should be asked and answered anyway: why is it a low-magic setting (in other words, why is magic rare) ?
- is it dangerous, and how ?
- is it unpopular, and why ?
- is not not worth the time spent studying it, because there are more powerful or efficient options ?
- is it very difficult to access ?
Depending on then answer(s), the consequences on the game system will be different: the first answer (dangerous) would probably require an added mechanism to make things dangerous when casting a spell (this is MERP's take on magic, in a way - the danger being the risk of being noticed by Sauron or its servants); the second answer would require a very significant social stigma attached to magic use and possibly everyday ostracism and harrassment from "normal" people (some kind of Ars Magic "gift" side effects); the third would require both a reduction in magical power and an increase in DP cost; the fourth would require both modifications on talent requirements (a high-cost "remote master" talent, plus favors each time the character wants to be taught something new, plus any hoop the GM can think of).

Note that some answers may be combined - for instance, answer #1 might trigger answer #2 as a side effect... which might itself trigger answer #4.

But you have to explain why magic is rare in non-technical terms first. The rationale is the logic behind the technical modifications you will make.

Just an idea off the top of my head: magic is rare because, if you have the gift of magic, you essentially become a slave to someone else - this is the only way you would survive. Magic is not rare, because it is useful. Slaves are actually bred (like horses) in the hope the magical gifts will breed true. But the rule is: if you've got magic, you're a slave and someone else has the power of life and death over you.
Of course, some would try to break their chains. Some would succeed. But they are always hunted down mercilessly, because they are a danger to the whole social construct, so no one gives them shelter or helps them.
Because if magic users are not slaves, then they would most likely be overlords. And no one wants to live as a slave to a wizard.

Would you be a slave ?

Now try to build something with this :) (there are many questions that are not answered, of course - how are magically capable people detected, how can magic use be perceived by non-users, is there some kind of inquisition force hunting down the escaped slaves, how is slavery enforced and what are the rules for it, are there people trying to cheat - learning magic without anyone knowing...)

Offline gog

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Re: Limiting magic in your game world
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2019, 10:14:04 AM »
There is another way to limit the magic level, which is to add a talent around what level spells a person is able to cast up to. Thus there is a cost in creating a powerful magical character. This could be explained by bloodlines/genetics of those able to cast magic. Even different cost options for different realms of magic.