Author Topic: So..  (Read 28634 times)

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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: So..
« Reply #220 on: June 10, 2021, 11:35:28 PM »
Honestly, Hurin, no offense meant but I always felt that, all in all, you don't really want to move away from RM2.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but personally I don't see it that way. You are right that I am more RM2 than RMSS, and that I do try to add an RM2 perspective to the development of RMU. But I do this primarily because I feel the design team is mostly (perhaps exclusively?) RMSS folks, and they tend to default to RMSS. I want RMU to be balanced, taking the best of both RM2 and RMSS (and adding new stuff to help solve old problems or add new elements) so that it can appeal to both camps, and truly be a Rolemaster Unified.
        I also try to add a historical perspective that explains why things are the way they are in previous editions of RM (e.g. why did Instantaneous Actions get changed 75% activity to 0% activity?), so that we can understand the designers' original intent and balance, and appreciate how errors and misunderstandings crept in; and that often involves doing some digging and some archaeology into RM2 and RM1. So, I just wanted to say, that's where I'm coming from.

I am glad you have done this Hurin.  And yes, I admit I am also more fond of the RM2 ruleset than any of the rulesets that have been developed since (including RMU).  Perhaps the name of the new edition is the problem.  I don't see it as truly unifying the RM2/RMC & the RMSS/RMFRP branches of the game.  I really do see it as a third ruleset whose basis is on the RM lineage it was developed from, but there are a lot of completely new things in RMU that (for me) draw it away from that lineage as well.  But, as I said above - ICE needs something new to keep RM afloat in the ever expanding market of tabletop RPGs & the ever dwindling number of new players taking up this hobby.

Odd brainstorm idea that just hit me: maybe ICE & Terry A. should partner with a video game producer & create a Shadow World video game to help promote RMU when it's finally ready to be released.  That would bring in some new blood & even a new revenue stream.

Sorry, about the aside…

At any rate, I'm glad that you tried to keep RMU faithful to RM's roots, Hurin.  I am truly grateful you have championed that for the community.

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Offline Thot

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Re: So..
« Reply #221 on: June 12, 2021, 10:57:57 AM »
Honestly, at this point I just want them to launch the kickstarter already, or publish the books without it, but in any case, just finally GET ON WITH IT.

Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #222 on: June 12, 2021, 06:17:08 PM »

Odd brainstorm idea that just hit me: maybe ICE & Terry A. should partner with a video game producer & create a Shadow World video game to help promote RMU when it's finally ready to be released.  That would bring in some new blood & even a new revenue stream.


The sad irony is that, just as ICE was going bankrupt in the mid 90s, it launched a venture with the videogame Dark Age of Camelot, which used Rolemaster as the basis of its class and spell systems. It was essentially a Rolemaster MMO set in Dark Age Europe. ICE folded before the game came out, so all the RM elements had to be stripped out of it. Some have speculated that, had ICE been able to last a little longer, the revenue from DAoC (which was quite profitable) might have allowed ICE to survive the lean times... but we'll never know for sure.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: So..
« Reply #223 on: June 12, 2021, 11:33:21 PM »
You're right, we'll never know - unfortunately  :(

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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: So..
« Reply #224 on: June 13, 2021, 07:36:21 AM »
Well, we also know about the MERP debacle. Had ICE been able to keep the rights to it until after the first movie came out, it may have been to profit from its success and survive... Who knows?
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #225 on: June 13, 2021, 10:01:05 AM »
Well, we also know about the MERP debacle. Had ICE been able to keep the rights to it until after the first movie came out, it may have been to profit from its success and survive... Who knows?

Yeah, that would have probably been even more money. ICE lost the Tolkien license in 1999 IIRC, and Fellowship of the Ring came out in 2001... those two short years!
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: So..
« Reply #226 on: June 13, 2021, 02:28:19 PM »
I have always wondered if Tolkien Enterprises could have requested that that iteration of ICE release the MERP license voluntarily, rather than force them into bankruptcy to accomplish that same thing (or maybe they did and ICE thought they could pull out of the tailspin). At least then they'd have their rights to re-sell, which was their intent with the movies coming out, and ICE may have still been able to survive. Somewhat debatable as they obviously had to be in a poor position for T.E. to be able to do force them into bankruptcy if the first place. Some of that could have been blamed on the UPS strike and paper cost fluctuations too I suppose. Still, who knows, as much as T.E. has a very unfriendly reputation maybe those running ICE at the time ticked them off somehow and T.E. decided to make a point. The relationship between that ICE and it's freelancers was starting to deteriorate at that point also.
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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: So..
« Reply #227 on: June 14, 2021, 08:12:46 AM »
Honestly, at this point I just want them to launch the kickstarter already, or publish the books without it, but in any case, just finally GET ON WITH IT.

I'll echo this. I'd like to have a look at the new rules in whatever the first book ends up being and and see if the entire system is worth buying but it doesn't seem like that will ever happen.
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Offline Camel1918

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Re: So..
« Reply #228 on: July 23, 2021, 03:14:25 PM »
I also have to agree with Cory, as much as I would like to I just can't bring myself around to liking RMU. There are some interesting things that I do like but I'll have to see if I can Frankenstein them into my existing campaign. I wish I did love it. What I would truly love is a reorganizing of RMFRP and some updates.

Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: So..
« Reply #229 on: July 24, 2021, 01:55:27 AM »
I'm afraid, like MANY others I suspect, that I wasn't convinced that a major overhaul of the RM system (whichever of the two main ones you favoured) was particularly necessary to start with..  Though, as RM devotees, we probably would've tried (and possibly applied), at least PARTS, of whatever was produced... then may just have gone back to what we knew (and probably already house-ruled to our own satisfaction).
Time has dragged on however... and now, as the behemoth task of RMU nears ever closer to completion... I've grown older (but not necessarily wiser)... in that time I've found other games and systems that have filled the void... will I buy the new version of RM? Possibly. But with each year, it's getting increasingly more likely that it will just become another of those games we collectors buy then just squirrel away unused only occasionally being glanced at through rose-tinted spectacles.. :(
   

Offline Malim

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Re: So..
« Reply #230 on: July 24, 2021, 01:55:55 PM »
If RMU want to succed, it has to be on roll20 or other online platform! Sad truth theese days.
Sir Elor Blacke knight of Helyssa, Kytari Fighter lvl 25 (RM2)
Malim Naruum, Yinka Lord Bashkor lvl 27  (RM2)

Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #231 on: July 24, 2021, 02:27:58 PM »
If RMU want to succed, it has to be on roll20 or other online platform! Sad truth theese days.

Hence, my constant harping on how badly we need a good Roll20 sheet for RMU.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Malim

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Re: So..
« Reply #232 on: July 25, 2021, 09:01:32 AM »
If you want that sheet, someone has to pay a coder to make it or code it them self.
My guess is, if you want functions as what 5e sheet has.. you looking at 200 hours +
Sir Elor Blacke knight of Helyssa, Kytari Fighter lvl 25 (RM2)
Malim Naruum, Yinka Lord Bashkor lvl 27  (RM2)

Offline pantsorama

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Re: So..
« Reply #233 on: July 28, 2021, 04:54:31 PM »
Dupe post - sorry

Offline pantsorama

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Re: So..
« Reply #234 on: July 28, 2021, 05:05:41 PM »
If you want that sheet, someone has to pay a coder to make it or code it them self.
My guess is, if you want functions as what 5e sheet has.. you looking at 200 hours +

It is a behemoth - even with modding the existing RMFP sheet, and building some HTML code generators in Google Sheets.  And that is just for Player use - I can't even begin to imagine coding monsters for the DM to use.... 

Couple that with the fact that Roll20 does not do 100OE rolls like Rolemaster requires (meaning complicated roll templates, and you can't tie dice resolution into table results), and the fact that the rules are a bit squishy still, and the fact that people want it to be a character creation tool as well (It can be, but the last thing the sheet needs is scope creep right now).  Well - it got overwhelming.  I still dabble in coding on it, but I have lost momentum.

Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #235 on: July 28, 2021, 07:16:16 PM »
I am sorry it is such a vast undertaking.

I know nothing of coding, but I do know that the ERA has a character builder, and once the RMU module is published, players will I assume be able to use it to build characters. I wonder if it would save any time to use that as the builder, then just make a conversion/importing tool for Roll20?

Alternatively, I know my players currently use DnD Beyond to roll and run their characters. Somehow it is integrated with Roll20: they can click a skill in DnD Beyond and we can all see the result in Roll20. I wonder how hard that would be to do for the ERA. But if it were possible, you wouldnt even need a character sheet for Roll20. You could just run your character from the ERA.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Malim

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Re: So..
« Reply #236 on: July 29, 2021, 07:07:26 AM »
Roll20 can do 100OE, that is just a macro that is not that hard to make, they call it exploding dice or something.
I did a test of it in our RM2 sheet!
Sir Elor Blacke knight of Helyssa, Kytari Fighter lvl 25 (RM2)
Malim Naruum, Yinka Lord Bashkor lvl 27  (RM2)

Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #237 on: July 29, 2021, 11:05:57 AM »
From the Roll20 wiki:

Exploding Dice
Roll20 supports exploding dice -- you may also know it as "rule of 6", "rule of 10s", or "acing" depending on your game system. With exploding dice, if you roll the maximum number on the dice (a 6 with a d6, a 10 with a d10, etc.) you get to re-roll again and add the additional roll to your total for that roll. If the additional roll is also a maximum number, you get to keep rolling!

To perform a roll with exploding dice, just add an exclamation point after the number of sides in the formula. For example, /roll 3d6! would roll 3 d6 dice with exploding re-rolls. You can also define the exploding point for the dice using the greater-than and less-than symbols. For example, /roll 3d6!>4 would explode on any dice greater-than or equal-to 4. /roll 3d6!3 would explode only if a 3 is rolled.

/roll 10d6!

Compounding Exploding Dice (Shadowrun-Style Exploding Dice)

Shadowrun (and some other systems) use a special style of exploding dice where the the additional rolls for each dice are added together as a single "roll". To do this, just use two exclamation marks instead of one. So for example to roll 5 d6's, you would do /roll 5d6!!. A common Shadowrun roll would be exploding dice compared to a target number, for example /roll {5d6!!}>8 (notice the use of the brackets to show that we don't mean "explode on anything greater than 8", but rather "explode on 6's compounding, then compare to 8 for successes). Even though the target number (8) is higher than the possible roll from a single die, with the compounding exploding rolls a single roll can be infinitely high!

/roll {5d6!!}>8
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline pantsorama

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Re: So..
« Reply #238 on: July 29, 2021, 11:21:26 AM »
I am sorry it is such a vast undertaking.

So am I.  I would love to have a working character sheet.  I did one for Gamma World 2e, but RMU is a whole nother ball of wax.  It is what it is, I guess.

I know nothing of coding, but I do know that the ERA has a character builder, and once the RMU module is published, players will I assume be able to use it to build characters. I wonder if it would save any time to use that as the builder, then just make a conversion/importing tool for Roll20?

This would be optimal.  However you would for sure need a working Roll20 Character sheet first.  Also it involves an HTML parser that I have no idea how to use - and ERA would need to spit out XML/HTML.

Alternatively, I know my players currently use DnD Beyond to roll and run their characters. Somehow it is integrated with Roll20: they can click a skill in DnD Beyond and we can all see the result in Roll20. I wonder how hard that would be to do for the ERA. But if it were possible, you wouldnt even need a character sheet for Roll20. You could just run your character from the ERA.

This would be beyond awesome, but that would probably mean some sort of licensing deal, and ERA would need to be web enabled and use the roll20 API.  I am sure there are fees involved with that.  I wouldn't hold out hope for that one.

Offline pantsorama

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Re: So..
« Reply #239 on: July 29, 2021, 11:29:40 AM »
Roll20 can do 100OE, that is just a macro that is not that hard to make, they call it exploding dice or something.
I did a test of it in our RM2 sheet!

From the Roll20 wiki:
<snipped for brevity>

So all that is only half the story.  Roll20 only does open ended rolls for high rolls.  Thing is RoleMaster also has low end rolls.  You can simulate the RoleMaster rolls by declaring a fumble which triggers a separate downroll, but essentially it will not total the downroll with the original roll.  This means the total roll can not be applied to table results, and worse still they require spaghetti code roll templates that are a bear to get right and test, and all for just telling the user that you need to manually subtract this roll from that.  (Technically, this is not true for weapon attacks, since they have a fumble range, and not a downroll) 

One might argue that fumbles happen so infrequently, you can go ahead and apply the roll to a results table, and get the user to recalc and manually reference the table if they downroll.  I guess that is a solution, but I don't like it much - too much room for error and frustration.  Maybe I could say - don't reference a table if you fumble....  Let me think on that.

As an aside, I have asked for them to add in RoleMaster style 100OE rolls, but it never reached 10 votes so it got ignored.

You can do it with access to scripts.  Thing is - not everyone has access to that.  I could put a check to see if they do, but if I don't put in the code to handle it without scripts then the sheet doesn't work for most of Roll20 - so what is the point then?