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Offline Peter R

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Re: So..
« Reply #160 on: November 22, 2018, 09:01:28 AM »
I was thinking today that we could do a pretty good Mad Max game even without guns.

The possibilities are amazing just using A&CL.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: So..
« Reply #161 on: November 22, 2018, 01:25:08 PM »
One thing about guns - is they necessitate healing.  It's not fantasy roleplaying where healers, herbs, and potions abound.......someone shot will likely die, sooner or later, without healing.  And even with healing the recovery time would not be very game friendly.
I would certainly include healing rules as standard. The way you portray healing can set the tone of the entire game. If heroes are fully healed at the end of every scene then that invites a hack and slash approach to everything. If you heroes spend weeks and months in hospital that says something else.

If you don't want the players using guns then operate a 'Bang! You're dead!' system.

My NaGaDeMon game this year has about 25 words about guns, single shot, double tap, 3 round bursts and fully automatic fire but it has several paragraphs plus examples about healing and death. The emphasis is on not fighting, not getting hurt and not killing innocent people. In another twist the demonic creatures are immune to bullets anyway so should a player spray a room with bullets then only innocent people will get hurt.

I've obviously got healing rules figured to a major degree for firearms, and the way crits are structured are also key to this. It's just one of the many things that swing when you shift away from fantasy, even if you're not using guns. How many people died from infections and the like prior to firearms? I think you need to keep that in mind even with the stuff that's being talked about using standard A&CL. No herbs and no magic will shift healing considerably.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: So..
« Reply #162 on: November 22, 2018, 04:22:05 PM »
One thing about guns - is they necessitate healing.  It's not fantasy roleplaying where healers, herbs, and potions abound.......someone shot will likely die, sooner or later, without healing.  And even with healing the recovery time would not be very game friendly.
I would certainly include healing rules as standard. The way you portray healing can set the tone of the entire game. If heroes are fully healed at the end of every scene then that invites a hack and slash approach to everything. If you heroes spend weeks and months in hospital that says something else.

If you don't want the players using guns then operate a 'Bang! You're dead!' system.

My NaGaDeMon game this year has about 25 words about guns, single shot, double tap, 3 round bursts and fully automatic fire but it has several paragraphs plus examples about healing and death. The emphasis is on not fighting, not getting hurt and not killing innocent people. In another twist the demonic creatures are immune to bullets anyway so should a player spray a room with bullets then only innocent people will get hurt.

I've obviously got healing rules figured to a major degree for firearms, and the way crits are structured are also key to this. It's just one of the many things that swing when you shift away from fantasy, even if you're not using guns. How many people died from infections and the like prior to firearms? I think you need to keep that in mind even with the stuff that's being talked about using standard A&CL. No herbs and no magic will shift healing considerably.

That would just be rubbing salt in the wound of an injured character.

Seriously, if we got official sanction to go ahead and enough people took part we could see a whole spectrum of different implementations from ultra real simulations to fast and light narrative style games.
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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: So..
« Reply #163 on: November 22, 2018, 10:26:20 PM »
I was thinking today that we could do a pretty good Mad Max game even without guns.

The possibilities are amazing just using A&CL.

A starting place for that one would be the Cyberspace campaign book Death Valley Free Prison.  One of my favourite settings books that ICE has produced.

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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: So..
« Reply #164 on: November 22, 2018, 10:27:29 PM »
Speaking of the British Isles, Peter.  How 'bout something with a little bit more Celtic flair - you could do dark age pre-Saxon Brittain with Druids, Bards, the Fæ (Tuatha de Danaan) & even Celtic heroes like Cú Chulainn or Fionn mac Cumhaill.

I guess my Pseudo-Pulp setting could work - though one of the main players in the story thusfar is a Weapons manufacturing company that is one of the biggest backers of the Nazi-like regime that rules the country where the story begins.  It would still be nice to have some sort of firearms rules, beyond what is offered in SM; Cyberspace & Weapon Law.  But those are a start, I guess.

Still, I seem to have gotten stuck in the Beisash Way Station at the moment.  A nice little spot that I'm only starting to explore.

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Too many possibilities, too little time.

I know what you mean  :)

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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: So..
« Reply #165 on: November 22, 2018, 10:30:45 PM »
One thing about guns - is they necessitate healing.  It's not fantasy roleplaying where healers, herbs, and potions abound.......someone shot will likely die, sooner or later, without healing.  And even with healing the recovery time would not be very game friendly.
I would certainly include healing rules as standard. The way you portray healing can set the tone of the entire game. If heroes are fully healed at the end of every scene then that invites a hack and slash approach to everything. If you heroes spend weeks and months in hospital that says something else.

If you don't want the players using guns then operate a 'Bang! You're dead!' system.

My NaGaDeMon game this year has about 25 words about guns, single shot, double tap, 3 round bursts and fully automatic fire but it has several paragraphs plus examples about healing and death. The emphasis is on not fighting, not getting hurt and not killing innocent people. In another twist the demonic creatures are immune to bullets anyway so should a player spray a room with bullets then only innocent people will get hurt.

I've obviously got healing rules figured to a major degree for firearms, and the way crits are structured are also key to this. It's just one of the many things that swing when you shift away from fantasy, even if you're not using guns. How many people died from infections and the like prior to firearms? I think you need to keep that in mind even with the stuff that's being talked about using standard A&CL. No herbs and no magic will shift healing considerably.

Even some historical setting may have this problem.  Healing is huge, otherwise you're going to have PCs dying more often & that's going to turn off potential players.  Any healing & medical rules need to be easy to understand & use - as well as being realistic enough that we don't paint everything as magic or miracles.

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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: So..
« Reply #166 on: November 23, 2018, 08:43:45 AM »

Even some historical setting may have this problem.  Healing is huge, otherwise you're going to have PCs dying more often & that's going to turn off potential players.  Any healing & medical rules need to be easy to understand & use - as well as being realistic enough that we don't paint everything as magic or miracles.

Nightblade ->--

My point exactly, and that's what my rules try to do. The underlying thing is healing and crits in A&CL are both designed (consciously or not) with a robust magical healing environment in mind. Take that away and you need to reassess some things to make sure they still work.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: So..
« Reply #167 on: November 23, 2018, 09:50:19 AM »

Even some historical setting may have this problem.  Healing is huge, otherwise you're going to have PCs dying more often & that's going to turn off potential players.  Any healing & medical rules need to be easy to understand & use - as well as being realistic enough that we don't paint everything as magic or miracles.

Nightblade ->--

My point exactly, and that's what my rules try to do. The underlying thing is healing and crits in A&CL are both designed (consciously or not) with a robust magical healing environment in mind. Take that away and you need to reassess some things to make sure they still work.

Just don't lose sight of the fact that you are creating a game not a combat simulation.

Where we all know that infection could kill a large proportion of those injured in a battle the default should be that the PCs should be in that small lucky percentage. Therefore, unless some agent is working towards their destruction, the characters should survive even given the lack of magical healing, no antibiotics and poor medical knowledge.
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: So..
« Reply #168 on: November 23, 2018, 12:44:14 PM »
RMX used a healing option that was quite useful.  I'd re-purpose First aid and treat it like a spell list.  Heal a D10 of hits/rank.  Then apply that same hit dice/rank to isolated healing and use the thresholds from RMX - ie. Light Wounds 25% Hits, -20, Bleeding up to 5 hits/round etc.  Injuries Healed would be stiff & sore etc afterwards.  Make it more cinematic. 
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: So..
« Reply #169 on: November 23, 2018, 01:42:04 PM »

Even some historical setting may have this problem.  Healing is huge, otherwise you're going to have PCs dying more often & that's going to turn off potential players.  Any healing & medical rules need to be easy to understand & use - as well as being realistic enough that we don't paint everything as magic or miracles.

Nightblade ->--

My point exactly, and that's what my rules try to do. The underlying thing is healing and crits in A&CL are both designed (consciously or not) with a robust magical healing environment in mind. Take that away and you need to reassess some things to make sure they still work.

Just don't lose sight of the fact that you are creating a game not a combat simulation.

Where we all know that infection could kill a large proportion of those injured in a battle the default should be that the PCs should be in that small lucky percentage. Therefore, unless some agent is working towards their destruction, the characters should survive even given the lack of magical healing, no antibiotics and poor medical knowledge.

I haven't lost sight of that. Keep in mind that some groups prefer a higher level of detail than yours might or prefer a grittier game, and it's best to have a system that can accommodate both with a small amount of adjustment. Better First Aid rules make that possible.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: So..
« Reply #170 on: November 23, 2018, 01:48:10 PM »
RMX used a healing option that was quite useful.  I'd re-purpose First aid and treat it like a spell list.  Heal a D10 of hits/rank.  Then apply that same hit dice/rank to isolated healing and use the thresholds from RMX - ie. Light Wounds 25% Hits, -20, Bleeding up to 5 hits/round etc.  Injuries Healed would be stiff & sore etc afterwards.  Make it more cinematic.
If we were to be writing RMU powered standalone games then you can apply anything you like to any mechanic.

I think if we do ahead with these I would simply ignore the incidence of fatal infections, PCs would be some of the lucky few who survive and recover.

I would also redefine the skill results to make it more narrative in style than the default simulationist approach, I think it downgrades more gracefully.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: So..
« Reply #171 on: November 23, 2018, 01:52:38 PM »

Even some historical setting may have this problem.  Healing is huge, otherwise you're going to have PCs dying more often & that's going to turn off potential players.  Any healing & medical rules need to be easy to understand & use - as well as being realistic enough that we don't paint everything as magic or miracles.

Nightblade ->--

My point exactly, and that's what my rules try to do. The underlying thing is healing and crits in A&CL are both designed (consciously or not) with a robust magical healing environment in mind. Take that away and you need to reassess some things to make sure they still work.

Just don't lose sight of the fact that you are creating a game not a combat simulation.

Where we all know that infection could kill a large proportion of those injured in a battle the default should be that the PCs should be in that small lucky percentage. Therefore, unless some agent is working towards their destruction, the characters should survive even given the lack of magical healing, no antibiotics and poor medical knowledge.

I haven't lost sight of that. Keep in mind that some groups prefer a higher level of detail than yours might or prefer a grittier game, and it's best to have a system that can accommodate both with a small amount of adjustment. Better First Aid rules make that possible.
That is definitely true. One of the exciting things about this idea is that we could end up with half a dozen different games that are all powered by RMU but really appeal to a whole cross section of the games industry.
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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: So..
« Reply #172 on: November 25, 2018, 07:41:09 PM »
So I guess the question comes down to: how do the people at ICE feel about this idea?

We can keep brainstorming ideas (which is a great idea); but unless we get a go-ahead from ICE, we're just having a great conversation.

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Offline Peter R

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Re: So..
« Reply #173 on: November 26, 2018, 02:28:58 AM »
So I guess the question comes down to: how do the people at ICE feel about this idea?

We can keep brainstorming ideas (which is a great idea); but unless we get a go-ahead from ICE, we're just having a great conversation.

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Very true
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: So..
« Reply #174 on: November 26, 2018, 04:10:39 AM »
Forgiveness not permission?  LOL
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Offline Peter R

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Re: So..
« Reply #175 on: November 26, 2018, 04:38:39 AM »
I have got a lot to do before the end of the year so if this rumbles on for another 6 weeks then I will not complain.
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Offline jdale

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Re: So..
« Reply #176 on: November 26, 2018, 09:44:18 AM »
I don't think Nicholas is going to greenlight an idea based solely on a forum post, but you could submit a proposal....
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: So..
« Reply #177 on: November 26, 2018, 05:51:08 PM »
I think we are looking more for feedback so that we don't waste our time too.  So we can avoid a potential "yes, but" scenario.  Maybe an official response saying ICE might be interested in a product produced under these guidelines.
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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: So..
« Reply #178 on: November 26, 2018, 11:54:44 PM »
I think we are looking more for feedback so that we don't waste our time too.  So we can avoid a potential "yes, but" scenario.  Maybe an official response saying ICE might be interested in a product produced under these guidelines.

I agree.  I understand Nicholas needs actual proposals.  However, if ICE isn't even interested in the idea we are discussing, then there is no point putting any work into a proposal that is going to get shot down right away.  A "We like the idea, but here's some things we would want to see" or a "Sorry guys & gals, this isn't the direction we think we want to go in" is all we would need to start working (or not) on proposals.

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Offline Peter R

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Re: So..
« Reply #179 on: November 27, 2018, 01:45:24 AM »
So we could bash out the wording of the proposal.
Are we each going to put in a proposal for individual games 'powered by Rolemaster', not my preferred option.
Are we going to propose a contest format with a start and end date, I like that idea.
Are we going to suggest a prize of publication for the best 1, 2, or 3?
Do we need access to just A&CL or do we want/need access to some of the mundane creatures in Creature Law such as dogs and horses? I think horses and dogs and things would be useful as they have always been common status symbols for the warrior class and dogs are a good challenge for even a low level character.
Do we use JDales new tables or use the published ones in Beta2, I would prefer to use JDales updates.
Do we include char gen rules or provide pregen characters? Pregen's take a lot of work out of the project.

As an example I am just a few days away from completing such a challenge. The rules were that we had to use the FUDGE engine at the core of the rules. We had one calendar month to go from concept to having played the game. The prize was just a certificate of completion.

Is there anything else we should include or would want to know? If this works I would love to see a "January, New Year, New Game" annual challenge. As long as everyone knew that they were a game design competition entry and not official ICE games you could have a lot of fun with it.
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