Topic: Middle Earth

[Hurin]

Those characters in Ghost Warriors don't really follow the rules -- at least not the rules for RM2. Some seem to be MERP character classes, such as the Dwarf with 73 OB at level 1, which can be at least partly accounted for by the fact IIRC that Dwarves in MERP get an unusual amount of cultural/background ranks in 1HConcussion weapons.

In RMU, characters at first level will almost always start out with higher hits, better DBs, and many more spell points (if they are spell users).

They might also start out with lower OBs, since the most number of ranks they can spend in a weapon is 2 (though they may also get culture ranks), and some RM2 classes get a +3/level bonus in weapon skills. However, most RMU classes can get a +2/level professional bonus in weapon skills, if they buy 2 ranks in the weapon, so in terms of professional bonuses, the classes in RM2 are about the same as the classes in RMU. Also, RMU characters have access to something RM2 characters did not: knacks. These can increase two skills by between +5 and +20, depending on power level.

Stats are about the same as well, and in fact RMU characters actually could have higher stat bonuses (+15 is the highest in RMU, which corresponds to a +45 in RM2). So, the advantage here clearly goes to the RMU characters too.

RMU characters generally have considerably higher hits, since they get a racial bonus to hit points. Some of those ghost warriors characters have 20 hits at level 1. Any medium-sized RMU character is going to have more than that, barring a terrible constitution stat.

RMU characters are also capable of having much higher DBs as well. The Dwarf in Ghost Warriors is benefitting from a shield-- probably a wall shield for +30 DB. The most he could get from quickness however is his stat bonus. But a Dwarf in RMU could not only get a higher Qu bonus (+45), he could also get an additional +2 from his professional bonus to the shield skill. So again, the RMU characters have higher potential bonuses here as well.

So yes, OBs might be a little less in RMU, but hits, DBs, and powerpoints are all going to be higher. If you are worried that RMU characters might not keep up, you can also increase the power level to Epic, which would mean that the RMU characters can also increase the benefit of their knacks to +20, for an additional +20 bonus at level 1.

An RMU Fighter could theoretically (with perfect stats) start the game with a 95 OB, 119 hit points, and a 77 DB. That is more than could be achieved theoretically in RM2.

[Ecthelion]

Those characters in Ghost Warriors don't really follow the rules -- at least not the rules for RM2. Some seem to be MERP character classes, such as the Dwarf with 73 OB at level 1, which can be at least partly accounted for by the fact IIRC that Dwarves in MERP get an unusual amount of cultural/background ranks in 1HConcussion weapons.

I never said these character would follow the RM2 rules. It's a MERP module and they were created using the MERP rules.

An RMU Fighter could theoretically (with perfect stats) start the game with a 95 OB, 119 hit points, and a 77 DB. That is more than could be achieved theoretically in RM2.

At level 1??? If so then it would be interesting to get to know how this can be done. Because the RMU test characters I created had much lower values at level 1. But if these values are for a level 3 RMU character (i.e. the suggested RMU starting level), then it's just the point I want to make: We need to make clear what the starting levels for RMU characters should be when playing the MERP adventure modules.

[Hurin]

Those characters in Ghost Warriors don't really follow the rules -- at least not the rules for RM2. Some seem to be MERP character classes, such as the Dwarf with 73 OB at level 1, which can be at least partly accounted for by the fact IIRC that Dwarves in MERP get an unusual amount of cultural/background ranks in 1HConcussion weapons.

I never said these character would follow the RM2 rules. It's a MERP module and they were created using the MERP rules.

Point taken.

An RMU Fighter could theoretically (with perfect stats) start the game with a 95 OB, 119 hit points, and a 77 DB. That is more than could be achieved theoretically in RM2.

At level 1??? If so then it would be interesting to get to know how this can be done. Because the RMU test characters I created had much lower values at level 1. But if these values are for a level 3 RMU character (i.e. the suggested RMU starting level), then it's just the point I want to make: We need to make clear what the starting levels for RMU characters should be when playing the MERP adventure modules.

My numbers:

OB: 24 (2 ranks bought at first level +2 cultural ranks + 4 professional bonus) + 45 (stat) + 20 (knack) = 89 (not sure where I got the extra +6 from)
Hits: 30 (culture) + 24 (ranks) + 45 (stat) + 20 (knack) = 119
DB: 45 (stat) +30 (tower shield) + 2 (2 ranks in shield skill) = 77.

[Ecthelion]

My numbers:

OB: 24 (2 ranks bought at first level +2 cultural ranks + 4 professional bonus) + 45 (stat) + 20 (knack) = 89 (not sure where I got the extra +6 from)
Hits: 30 (culture) + 24 (ranks) + 45 (stat) + 20 (knack) = 119
DB: 45 (stat) +30 (tower shield) + 2 (2 ranks in shield skill) = 77.

Thanks for explaining. My understanding of RMU is from Beta 2 (2015). And there cultural ranks for melee were only included for one culture (and there only one rank) and for missile weapons did not exist at all. Rolling a 100 for two or more temporary stats to get the above stat bonuses is more than exceptional. And the default power level from the rules is "superior", which has two Knacks with a +5 bonus. The highest, "epic", power-level, which provides two +20 knacks, would be quite unusual for our group.

So yes, theoretically a RMU character might have such high stats (just like a theoretical perfect MERP character would have higher stats than given in the adventure module), but the normal character would - from my understanding of the Beta 2 rules - rather have values like this:
OB: 12 (2 ranks bought at first level + 2 professional bonus) + 10 (stat) + 5 (knack) = 27
Hits: 30 (culture) + 12 (ranks) + 10 (stat) + 5 (knack) = 57
DB: 10 (stat) +25 (full shield) + 2 (2 ranks in shield skill) = 37.
In terms of hits that's high above those of a MERP character, in terms of DB that's on par and in terms of OB its far below. And this is more like what I've seen in the few example characters that were IIRC posted here on the forums.

[jdale]

Current drafts of RMU will give 1 culture rank in a melee or ranged weapon skill for a little more than half of the cultures. So it's not unreasonable to add +6 (one rank and another +1 for a professional bonus), for a bonus around +33.

If you want higher bonuses, you can start at higher level (boosts everything), use a higher power level (boosts stats and the knack bonus for a couple skills), or just let the PCs have high steel weapons (boosts only weapon OBs). Personally, I think 2nd level is a good place to start a campaign and then do fairly rapid advancement to 4th or 5th as the players get the hang of the system and their characters.

I can't really speak to the MERP modules themselves, not having read them, but I imagine given the legal issues that any guidance there is going to have to come out of the community and not from ICE itself.

[Hurin]

In addition to what JDale said, I would point out that the sorts of bonuses one finds on that one Dwarf Warrior in Ghost Warriors would not normally be possible in RM2, or possibly in MERP; that is, I'm not sure that the designers of the module were even following MERP rules.

In RM2, a level 1 Dwarf Fighter (equivalent to Warrior) would have something like a 41 OB:
20 (4 ranks) + 18 (stats: +25 St and +5 Ag averaged) +3 (level bonus) = 41.
I have no idea how he got to 73.
Note that he has rolled VERY high for these stats: a 99 St and a 94 Ag.

The RMU Dwarf with the same stats would have something like a 61 OB:
18 (3 ranks + professional bonus) +38 (stats) + 5 (knack) = 61.
That is a full 20 points higher than the same RM2 character.

The main difference then seems to be in the stat generation method. I personally do not much like the RMU method of rolling two stats and making the higher one the potential, since as you note Ecthelion this normally results in much lower starting stats for RMU. (You are essentially rolling with what DnD calls 'disadvantage' for your temporary stats in RMU.) Our group pretty much gave up on the RMU method and went to just rolling the stat bonuses directly, treating them as temporaries. If you really want to make sure RMU characters are not gimped when you're using old MERP modules, I would just use the old stat generation method.

How is it even possible to have a 73 OB at first level in MERP? I haven't played it since the 80s, but it seems like the creators of some of those old MERP modules (and most especially the creators of the Lords of Middle Earth books) weren't really following their own rules when making characters. Note that the other pregen characters in the module have far lower OBs, with the exception of the Animist, at 60; but then note in addition that the 3rd level Animist's OB is the same as the 1st level Animist's OB: both are 60. So there are definitely some weird things -- possibly typos -- going on with the pregen characters there.

In any case, sorry if I came across as a bit harsh in my earlier posts Ecthelion. I thought you were essentially asking, 'If I'm starting a campaign in Middle Earth, and using RMU rules to build characters, will the characters be gimped?' I think the answer is: definitely not, if you are using the old methods of stat generation. And even if you're using the new RMU ones, I think the extra hits, spell points, and DB will help first level RMU characters to do just fine in the old modules.

[Ecthelion]

I can't really speak to the MERP modules themselves, not having read them, but I imagine given the legal issues that any guidance there is going to have to come out of the community and not from ICE itself.

Thanks for the information. So a guideline might using the PC levels 3, 4 and 5 instead of the levels 1, 3 and 5 typically given in the modules. Or 2, 3 and 4 and starting with +10 weapons or or or... we'll see.

[Ecthelion]

How is it even possible to have a 73 OB at first level in MERP?

The given character is a dwarf. So its 4 ranks from the race + 2 ranks for level 1 = 30 (skill) + 20 (stats) + 5 (racial stat bonus) + 3 (level bonus) = 58 without background options. If the character has a special +10 bonus for his primary weapon and the Lightning Reactions background option, which gives +5 to OB, then we have the missing +15 for a total of 73. I'd say they followed the rules.

In any case, sorry if I came across as a bit harsh in my earlier posts Ecthelion. I thought you were essentially asking, 'If I'm starting a campaign in Middle Earth, and using RMU rules to build characters, will the characters be gimped?' I think the answer is: definitely not, if you are using the old methods of stat generation. And even if you're using the new RMU ones, I think the extra hits, spell points, and DB will help first level RMU characters to do just fine in the old modules.

All is well :-). Just from my little experience with some test characters of mine I thought the suggested levels 1, 3 and 5 given in the MERP adventure modules might not be the right choice when using RMU characters. That's why I was asking.

[Witchking20k]

Just use the orcs, ghosts and various monsters from RMU.  The maneuver DRs of Light, Medium, Hard etc. should port over well.  That module in particular uses a lot of spells if I remember correctly though.