Author Topic: Middle Earth  (Read 8332 times)

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2016, 10:21:52 AM »
I've played and enjoyed every edition of DnD. 5e is my least favorite, because, like BPowell, I feel that many of the problems that plagued earlier editions have returned.

I understand why many people disliked 4e, but at least it attempted to solve some of the earlier problems. 5e is terribly imbalanced. A 2nd level Moon Druid can wreck a campaign (ridiculously overpowered), as can a 5th level Wizard with Fireball. The Ranger is so terrible they had to errata changes to it. There are many other things that have reverted back to their earlier, inferior forms, not because they were simpler or better, but to appeal to nostalgia. 4e for example had a simple rule, 'Attacker always rolls'. Now we're back to some attacks requiring saves from the defender, and others requiring rolls from the attacker. Now we have each class too almost having its own subsystems, with different rules for how they are handled. And yet the subclasses have very little complexity or diversity at all. Play a fighter once, and you've pretty much played them all. There are like 30 feats total or something like that; almost no customization at all. We're halfway through our second (short) campaign, and already getting bored. Items, especially magic items, are terrible. And the modules are horrible. Example: The module I'm currently playing has encounters like, '1d4 Hook Horrors'. Well, 1 Hook Horror would be a trivial boring fight, 2 would be relatively easy, 3 would be hard, and 4 would be a TPK. Do they really want me to just roll randomly for that? Terrible, terrible game design, as is clear from the reviews for the first module they released for the new system.

All of this means a game that is much harder for new players to learn. My players figured out 4e (even with the jargon) in a few sessions. My wife, who had a harder time with 3.5e, picked 4e up much more quickly. Now with 5e we're back to almost every class having its own subsystems and subrules. Yech.

And I would seriously doubt that the audience is back. Yes, 5e books sold well, but I strongly suspect that is because they are publishing something like 1/10th of the volume of products they published in 4e. At my local shop, there is literally like less than 10 5e products on the shelves altogether; Pathfinder has 3x the books or more. By this point in its life, 4e had multiple Players books, DM books and Monster Manuals. I would like to see some hard statistics that the 5e books are outselling all those combined. The fact that Wizards just laid off some of the staff (of 13 people) that work full-time on 5e doesn't bode well, and their lack of online tools (and revenue streams from them) suggests that the new edition is considerably less profitable than the old.

Opinions on these editions will vary, but my group much preferred 4e. We play a tactical, grid-based, combat-heavy, RP-lite game, and of course that is not for everyone. But for us, 4e was way more fun than the unbalanced, simplistic, and at this point downright boring 5e.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2016, 10:01:20 AM »
My current favorite rules system for ME is the Lord of the Rings RPG from Decipher. It does a good job at reflecting the setting material, I feel. (No crazy spell lists that totally don't fit, for example.)
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Offline arakish

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2016, 01:06:44 PM »
My current favorite rules system for ME is the Lord of the Rings RPG from Decipher. It does a good job at reflecting the setting material, I feel. (No crazy spell lists that totally don't fit, for example.)

And I have to agree with this.  I only bought the first Decipher book, feeling it may not be all that great.  However, I was wrong!  Now I wished I had bought the other two Decipher books that were sitting right there on the shelf.  And how many times have all of us had this happen?

I loved the way Decipher did magic for ME.  It is more like JRRT wrote it in his stories.  Subtle (VERY when compared to all flavors RM), but can be very effective.

I only went as far as to get DnD 3e.  Saw some things I liked, but it was still a game of bashing each other until one reaches 0 hits first.  I love the deadliness that RM has because it is more realistically believable.  As I have always preached, although systemic damage (hits loss) can kill, it is the critical damage that actually kills first.

Since Peter Jackson's LotR trilogy, I have always used the Witch King's stabbing Frodo in the shoulder as a PRIME example.  The stab (systemic damage) caused only a little harm.  It was the critical damage (a shard of the blade left behind inside) that was going to kill Frodo.  Sometimes the critical damage is slow.  More often it is quick, as with Riddick's chopping of Diaz when they were retrieving the Power Nodes in the movie Riddick.

It is the believable realism of RM combat that always makes me come back to the RM system.

I have heard alot about Pathfinder, but have never bought anything to check it out.  Wished they'd give a very good "teaser" download for free.

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Offline egdcltd

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2016, 01:42:00 PM »
Pathfinder is apparently enough like D&D3.x to be backwards compatible with it. Certainly the 3.x supplements I have look like they could be easily converted to Pathfinder. Of course, there are waaay more optional rules and stuff for Pathfinder now, even excluding third party content.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2016, 10:13:36 PM »
Pathfinder is basically D&D 3.6e. The rules are very similar to 3.5, but they fixed a lot of things that were horribly, horribly broken.

I played D&D 4e with a very tactical group, but the sameness overwhelmed them. It seemed appealing at first but wore off very quickly. Personally, what I liked least was the removal of utility magic. E.g. there was only one class that even had plain old light spells! Utility magic is great for encouraging creative thinking. 4e did a fantastic job of providing clarity, but at the expense of creativity. Of course D&D's fire-and-forget magic system has always limited that to some extent, since you are working with a small pool of spells at any given time.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2016, 10:53:21 PM »
Pathfinder is basically D&D 3.6e. The rules are very similar to 3.5, but they fixed a lot of things that were horribly, horribly broken.

I played D&D 4e with a very tactical group, but the sameness overwhelmed them. It seemed appealing at first but wore off very quickly. Personally, what I liked least was the removal of utility magic. E.g. there was only one class that even had plain old light spells! Utility magic is great for encouraging creative thinking. 4e did a fantastic job of providing clarity, but at the expense of creativity. Of course D&D's fire-and-forget magic system has always limited that to some extent, since you are working with a small pool of spells at any given time.

There was some utility magic in 4e; there were utility powers (not just the 'Utility' type but actual utility spells like fly), and beyond them much of the other utility magic was moved to rituals. Two things limited the appeal of utility magic in 4e though: there was definitely less of it than in previous editions, and the combat-focused approach of 4e meant that utility magic was less directly useful. The rituals were specifically non-combat because they took so long to perform. So I don't think it is entirely accurate to say utility magic was removed, but I do agree with your general point that it was much reduced in appeal.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Alwyn

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2017, 09:49:00 AM »
I went on ahead a purchased both the Player's Guide and the Lore Master's Guide for "Adventures in Middle Earth".  Although the system is 5e D&D, it is more akin to their "The One Ring" RPG.  From what I have read so far, I think this system has definite possibilities.  I am thinking of giving it a try with my HARP group since some of them like 5e.
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Offline Kullervo

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2017, 04:14:01 AM »
Hello friends! I am planning to make a HARP party in Middle-earth using MERP adventures. I'm building the characters using the rules of Other Minds # 15 (fantastic adaptation!), but I find it difficult to convert the original statistics. Do you have a quick and easy method?

For example, this NPC from "Raiders of Cardolan" (1988):
Harnekil 
Lvl 10 
Hits 28 
AT No/2 
DB 5 
Melee OB 30da 
2ndary/Missile OB 5da 
Mov M 5 
Ancient Petty-dwarf Evil Animist. 
4 Lists to L10, 40 PP +20 Directed Spell.
+15 Dwarven dagger

Also the stats. I can feel that are a little higher than the HARp stats.

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2017, 05:58:36 AM »
Stats in ME are deceiving- a stat from 75-89 yields a +5 bonus and there is 1 stat per skill.  IN HARP you gain a bonus (however small) for being above 50 and use 2 stats per skill so most skills get at least a minimal +2 to +5 in stat bonuses.  If I recall correctly there is a breakdown of how the NPCs stats are allocated in the ME core book- something along the lines of a 90 in the prime stat and 75 in all others. 
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Offline Mordrig

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2017, 07:21:36 AM »
Personally, I have lost all interest in the D&D system.  I find it too limiting and down right boring, you are basically ultra powerful and virtual unkillable, and combat takes forever.  Roll, damage, repeat.  Yes, most systems are that same thing, but as a GM you need to upgrade your telling slightly.  D&D just doesn't do it any more.

For playing in Middle Earth (which was the question) I prefer the Rolemaster system, pick your RM type, all are good, but again you have to watch the combat, yes RM does allow faster combats, critical hits take away some of the roll the dice and do damage only.  Still there are ICE products for so much of ME that you can't help but find guides for every area you desire (EXCEPT THE EAST, why ICE do we still not have anything about the East?)   :)

In all cases be sure your players can handle the quest they have undertaken, I mean at level 3 you should probably not try to kill Smaug, but to sneak in and steal a bag of coins from the Goblin King?  Maybe, if you are stealthy enough and have the module for Mount Gundabad (Product 3110).

Offline Hurin

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2017, 10:34:04 AM »
Personally, I have lost all interest in the D&D system.  I find it too limiting and down right boring, you are basically ultra powerful and virtual unkillable, and combat takes forever.  Roll, damage, repeat.  Yes, most systems are that same thing, but as a GM you need to upgrade your telling slightly.  D&D just doesn't do it any more.

My sentiments exactly. Fourth Edition DnD, for all its faults, at least tried to spice things up with some special moves (powers) for both players and monsters. Fifth Edition though has gone retro and gotten rid of all that, meaning Fighters just do essentially the same (basic) attack ad nauseum, and the monsters are mostly just sacks of hit points-- the higher level monsters are just bigger sacks. Class customization is extremely limited (even feats are an optional rule), meaning if you've played one fighter, you've pretty much played them all. It is odd to see people gushing over the new system out of nostalgia; after a campaign or two, the incredible shallowness of the system is obvious and the boredom palpable. I think some groups are finally starting to realize this.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline kwickham

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2017, 02:23:07 PM »
Hello friends! I am planning to make a HARP party in Middle-earth using MERP adventures. I'm building the characters using the rules of Other Minds # 15 (fantastic adaptation!), but I find it difficult to convert the original statistics. Do you have a quick and easy method?

For example, this NPC from "Raiders of Cardolan" (1988):
Harnekil 
Lvl 10 
Hits 28 
AT No/2 
DB 5 
Melee OB 30da 
2ndary/Missile OB 5da 
Mov M 5 
Ancient Petty-dwarf Evil Animist. 
4 Lists to L10, 40 PP +20 Directed Spell.
+15 Dwarven dagger

Also the stats. I can feel that are a little higher than the HARp stats.

Animist is like a Cleric - sometimes like a Druid.

I only have HARP Lite. Does HARP full version have NPC list in intervals of 2 or 5 lvls by profession? I know MERP and RM had those where you could just use a level 10 cleric or druid NPC as the basis.

If it don't I noticed this conversion of monsters in the vault which has generic NPCs at the very last page. Can maybe start with the level 9 basic stats and adjust. http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item386

Offline Alwyn

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2017, 09:50:59 AM »
Hello friends! I am planning to make a HARP party in Middle-earth using MERP adventures. I'm building the characters using the rules of Other Minds # 15 (fantastic adaptation!), but I find it difficult to convert the original statistics. Do you have a quick and easy method?

For example, this NPC from "Raiders of Cardolan" (1988):
Harnekil 
Lvl 10 
Hits 28 
AT No/2 
DB 5 
Melee OB 30da 
2ndary/Missile OB 5da 
Mov M 5 
Ancient Petty-dwarf Evil Animist. 
4 Lists to L10, 40 PP +20 Directed Spell.
+15 Dwarven dagger

Also the stats. I can feel that are a little higher than the HARp stats.


Kullervo,

In the ICE Vault Downloads there are two files in the Conversion Resources (HARP) folder entitled "RMSS Creatures and Monsters Conversion to HARP" and "Rolemaster to HARP Conversion Guide" which could be very helpful.  I use both of them for my Middle Earth campaign that I am running with HARP.
Alwyn Erendil
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"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT - At least not in Yu Gi Oh"

Don't worry, be HARPy!

Offline Alwyn

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2017, 09:56:30 AM »
Hello friends! I am planning to make a HARP party in Middle-earth using MERP adventures. I'm building the characters using the rules of Other Minds # 15 (fantastic adaptation!), but I find it difficult to convert the original statistics. Do you have a quick and easy method?

For example, this NPC from "Raiders of Cardolan" (1988):
Harnekil 
Lvl 10 
Hits 28 
AT No/2 
DB 5 
Melee OB 30da 
2ndary/Missile OB 5da 
Mov M 5 
Ancient Petty-dwarf Evil Animist. 
4 Lists to L10, 40 PP +20 Directed Spell.
+15 Dwarven dagger

Also the stats. I can feel that are a little higher than the HARp stats.

Animist is like a Cleric - sometimes like a Druid.

I only have HARP Lite. Does HARP full version have NPC list in intervals of 2 or 5 lvls by profession? I know MERP and RM had those where you could just use a level 10 cleric or druid NPC as the basis.

If it don't I noticed this conversion of monsters in the vault which has generic NPCs at the very last page. Can maybe start with the level 9 basic stats and adjust. http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item386


kwickham,

Yes, HARP Fantasy Martial Law has full NPCs with stats, skills, etc. for each profession at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.
Alwyn Erendil
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Offline Kullervo

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2017, 12:34:29 PM »
Than you! Yes, very useful documents!  :)

Offline Alwyn

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2017, 08:25:55 AM »
No problem Kullervo, glad I could help.   :)
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2017, 02:22:15 PM »
Btw., will we have the same problem when trying to use old Middle Earth (and also Shadow World) modules with RMU? RMU IIRC suggests a starting level of 3 because in level 1 or 2 the characters are quite weak. OTOH many/all of the old ME modules suggest a starting level of 1 for the first adventures and then up to 5th level for the last adventures (at least the ready-to-run type of modules). Perhaps it's only a level conversion, perhaps not even that, perhaps even more.

Offline Tolwen

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2018, 05:56:48 PM »
Hi all,
after a long wait, the latest Issue of Other Minds (#18) is now out. This time we have a TOR focus again (two reviews plus an adventure), but also picked up an old-time favourite of MERP - 'The Court of Ardor'. 94 pages await your critical eyes!
Beside the regular columns (Editorial, Inside Information etc.) you will find the following content:
  • Review: Bree
       by José Enrique Vacas de la Rosa
  • Review: Horse-lords of Rohan
       by Thomas Morwinsky
  • The Court of Ardor and the Book of Linsûl (discussion of background info for a famous MERP module) by  Tom Davie
  • The Book of Linsûl (in-world background info to the previous contribution)
       by Tom Davie
  • The Gloomweaver Awakened (adventure for TOR)
       by Paul Kirk
  • The Demographics of Dor 'Wathui and Dunland (scholarly thoughts and usable extrapolations on the urbanisation of Dor 'Wathui/Dunland in 9 eras of the Third Age)
       by Thomas Morwinsky
You can find the file on the OM website or under this direct link. Have fun with it and feel free to comment anything you deem worthwhile :)

For the OM team
Thomas
Visit Other Minds Magazine - an international magazine for roleplaying in J.R.R. Tolkiens Middle-earth.

Other Minds now also on Facebook!

Offline Hurin

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2018, 08:20:46 PM »
Btw., will we have the same problem when trying to use old Middle Earth (and also Shadow World) modules with RMU? RMU IIRC suggests a starting level of 3 because in level 1 or 2 the characters are quite weak. OTOH many/all of the old ME modules suggest a starting level of 1 for the first adventures and then up to 5th level for the last adventures (at least the ready-to-run type of modules). Perhaps it's only a level conversion, perhaps not even that, perhaps even more.

I don't think you should have too much problem. The developers of RMU said that they are increasing the number of culture ranks characters get at 1st level to help compensate, and unlike in RM2, most races also get some extra starting development points (humans for example get a lot, due to the fact that they have no stat bonuses, and this is a way to balance the races). Races in RMU also get a bonus to starting hit points. So I don't think there will be too much difference between a level 1 RMU character and a level 1 RM2 character-- the RMU character will most likely have more starting hit points and spell points (if a spell user), at least.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Middle Earth
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2018, 03:46:45 AM »
Not sure if that is enough, because IMO still the number of ranks in the primary skills is quite limited. I just took a look at the ME adventure module "Ghost Warriors". There the pre-generated 1st level warrior PC character has 73 OB, 52 hit points and 30 DB. I wasn't able to create a RMU character just as capable at level 1. What I heard here in the forums is that the starting level for RMU characters should rather be level 3, so that the characters can survive an adventure. That's why I think there should be some kind of guideline if we want to use MERP modules with RMU.