Author Topic: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)  (Read 5199 times)

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Offline Finwe

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Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« on: April 30, 2012, 07:00:15 AM »
Hello, I wanted to ask you about the spell "Mantlet" (armsmaster lists Fortress Law, level 7, RMSS / RMFRP). As you know this spell creates a "dome of force" of 3 m radius on a target that can be mobile. Attacks can pass the barrier, but the attacks from the outside have to break it (and has 10 hits per level of the caster).
One of my players has a usriev weapon (like a spear of nearly 3 meters long) and casts this spell on himself, so that he can attack but not be attacked.  He argues that the usriev and his arm exceed the 3-meter radius of the spell and be able to attack his enemy while the enemy must break the barrier first. And before the break, he re-cast the spell.
In my opinion this makes him invulnerable, and I doubt if we are using it correctly. What do you think?
Thank you!

Offline Kristen Mork

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2012, 07:39:19 AM »
I would note that one does not hold a spear at its terminus.  So, a 3m weapon reach is out of the question, I would say 2m at most.  Add on about 1m of personal reach, and his enemies are not within melee range.  Even if you assume a 4m reach, his enemies can stand 4.1m away from him and (assuming a 1m reach plus 0.1m long weapon) and beat on the fortress.  The spell is best used with a missile weapon, or to counter missiles while you beat on the brutes.

Now, a clever warrior would spell master the spell to create a 1m radius.  Then, as long as the warrior's weapon is at least 1m longer than his enemy's weapon, he can get an attack off.  Even in this case, I would make the warrior suffer a penalty because his enemies can dart in and out of melee range.  (Then, I would allow the warrior to learn a combat maneuver to offset the penalty.  It's a good tactic, but it should require some DP to pull off consistently.)

Offline markc

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2012, 09:37:38 AM »
 IIRC the spell requires the caster to concentrate, does it not? And IIRC this does affect the persons OB if they can attack at all.
 But check my recollection of the spell because it maybe wrong or I maybe thinking about something else.

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Offline jdale

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2012, 10:09:59 AM »
Yes, the duration is "5 min/lvl (C)" which means concentration is required, but a maximum duration of 5 min/lvl.

Concentration is a 90% action so generally speaking that means no attacks. You can certainly use it as a team; the Armsmaster holds the defense and others make the attack. And that seems entirely within the spirit of what the Armsmaster is supposed to be good at.

If concentration was not required and you didn't put any limits on it, in principle you could cast it on the mobile point that is the butt end of the spear. The striking end is then 1.5m outside the mantlet. I probably wouldn't allow this if I was the GM though. I'd probably say that the mantlet takes some time to move and if cast on a weapon will significantly interfere with its use.
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Offline Finwe

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2012, 10:21:12 AM »
Thank you for your quick responses. Indeed, we did not realize that they are 5 m / lvl but that requires concentration, making it impossible to attack at once, and enter into further discussion is absurd. The usefulness of the spell lies then in use along with a strike team.

Another question, Do you think the dome is visible or invisible? Because if it is invisible his enemies could collide against it ¿?.
Another issue is whether this dome of force can pass through narrow passages or with people or if it bumps into them.

Offline providence13

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2012, 10:41:56 AM »

With much respect to my peers,
In RMSS/RMFRP, concentration is a 50%Act (pg 156). You still couldn't melee, though.
If you want to say that, if hasted, you have enough %Act to concentrate and melee, it's your game.

It doesn't sound like the field is malleable, but if Spell Mastered, I'd allow it in my game. Should be no different than "altering the height of a wall" Very Hard to Extremely Hard, SoHK (pg 114) in my opinion.

Is it visible? Maybe after a little blood, dirt.. it's up to you if the spell doesn't say. I'd put it up there with "known but not seen" after the first hit; -50, to know exactly where it is.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2012, 10:48:51 AM »
My mistake, I was thinking of spell prep. 50% is correct. That leaves enough for missile and thrown weapon attacks at a small penalty.

As for the other issues, it doesn't say but my personal feeling would be that Mantlets are transparent but not invisible. But I could see ruling that they (and walls of force in general) are invisible, really GM preference there. Noticeable with an alertness/observation roll might be a good compromise.

Page 25 says "all defenses created by these spells must rest on a solid surface". But I don't see any other restrictions. If the mantlet is capable of moving (which it is), it must be able to conform to changes in the terrain at least to some extent. Real ground is almost never flat. I think I would be generous about use in limiting terrain (trees, corridors, etc).

With regard to people, I think I would say there is some noticeable resistance when it pushes up against them. If you force it forward, it will pass over them rather than push them back. This handles situations like not-dead-yet bodies (you can keep advancing).  Another way to rule would be to say that it can push people out of the way, but whoever is carrying the anchor point needs to provide the force. So basically it is a contest of strength and mass between the person (or people) carrying the anchor point, and the people being pushed out of the way. Both options seem interesting to me.

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Offline markc

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2012, 11:04:11 AM »
  Thanks for the spell duration check. I thought it did require concentration as the armsmaster is one of my favorite professions to play. 


 The 50% concentration spell requirement IMHO would prevent the person from attacking. The last statement is against the % activity rules in the book but IMHO attacking and (C) are two prime tasks that require a lot of attention to do well. So IMHO it is one or the other and the extra 50% activity can be used to move or other non-prime actions.


  The size of the spell:
    IMHO the size of the spell is set by the spells definitions and it is not elastic in nature or form. That is to say it does not squish together to get in a small space or grow in other dimensions as needed. To do this would require Spell Mastery (SM) with small mods to make an irregular shape and a large mod to make it shrink and grow as the walls required. But that is just me giving you some thoughts on the matter and not info from the book on SM.


  Can you see the field:
    IMHO, the field is like that of a shield spell, if your shield spells can be seen then IMHO this type of spell will also be seen. As a house rule in my game these types of spells give off faint light so provide a penalty to hiding or being hidden.
    One case I could see  is that if... a person was attacking into a bright light they may not see the field and run into it. Again IMHO the caster could SM the spell so as it would not be seen and the GM would have to rule on the mods for this effect. 


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Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2012, 02:27:25 PM »
The intent is and was that the caster might be able to do some missile /thrown attacks but melee (unless some strange weapon and casting choices have been made) should be out for the caster. It's an opportunity for a respite but Mantlets can be broken down or dispelled.

My intent was that Mantlets should be shimmery or translucent but GM call as to how they want them to look.

Yes, you should be able to move a mantlet over rough terrain (including bodies of the (not-so-)slain). Of course if they are not dead and you've brought them inside your Mantlet, their attacks are no longer stopped.

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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2012, 08:11:27 AM »
Yes, you should be able to move a mantlet over rough terrain (including bodies of the (not-so-)slain). Of course if they are not dead and you've brought them inside your Mantlet, their attacks are no longer stopped.
This points out the flaw in the Mantlet: aside from feinting death so that one enters it, booby traps (such as landmines or the medieval equivalent, delayed spells that activate only when inside the Mantlet, or hiding inside a hole and emerging from inside the Mantlet) work just perfectly. In a nutshell, the spell transforms the caster (and a small team) into a small tank... with the same weakness. If the spell starts to become widespread in battlefields, soon enough, magical landmines would become widespread as well~
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Offline Finwe

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2012, 06:43:00 AM »
If the user is hasted, he would have a 200% activity, which could distribute as follows:
- 100% in attack without penalties.
- 50% concentrate to keep Mantlet.
- 20% in adrenal speed maneuver for speed the next round.
And still has 30% of activity.
Using this combination could have Mantlet indefinitely until it completes the spell duration (5m/lvl).
Is that correct?

Offline markc

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2012, 08:04:54 AM »
Finwe,
 Are you used the Haste spell or using Adrenal Speed?
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Offline Finwe

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 11:42:00 AM »
Adrenal speed.

Offline markc

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2012, 01:15:36 PM »
 IIRC, there was a rule somewhere that said no back to back round adrenal skills. Now if your group uses a different rule then that is ok. Also if you do allow back to back adrenals then their is a high ExP point use that goes with it. That will probably limit the amount of time you can do this and other things. I also remember that some use some sort of formula that determines the max number of round you can use each adrenal (something that came to my mind last night that I want to try out would be[{(Qu+Co)/2+SD+Ranks in Self Control Cat+ Ranks in Adrenal Speed}/4]. If you had 30 ranks in the category and skill and a bonus of 15 for each stat you would have 90/4= 22.5 rounds per day. You would do this for each Adrenal switching out the Qu stat for the one relevant to the skill used).
 Also with Adrenal Speed you need to roll and see if you get 200% activity for a round. If you do not roll high enough then you may not get enough activity % to do all you want to do.


 So I need to know how your game deals with Adrenal Speed.
Thanks
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Offline Kristen Mork

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2012, 02:42:35 PM »
At least in RMSS, the rule isn't explicit, but it's hinted at in this text from Adrenal Quickdraw: "This skill does count against the one adrenal move every other round limit."

SoHK also hints at a limit with this text: "GMs may allow characters to sustain Adrenal maneuvers ... there is a cumulative penalty of -10 to the Self Control maneuver rolls after the first [round]."

Offline markc

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2012, 06:12:21 PM »
At least in RMSS, the rule isn't explicit, but it's hinted at in this text from Adrenal Quickdraw: "This skill does count against the one adrenal move every other round limit."

SoHK also hints at a limit with this text: "GMs may allow characters to sustain Adrenal maneuvers ... there is a cumulative penalty of -10 to the Self Control maneuver rolls after the first [round]."


 I thought as much I think I read it on the ICE Forums or the past RM Rulings List that I found somewhere. I also remember my RM2 GM having a limit that you could not use back to back rounds of adrenals.


Mantlet note: There is a talent that allows you to (C) for a number or rounds and then the spell will continue for a number of rounds you have already (C). I use this talent with Matlet type spells for my Arms Master all the time. I think the Talent is Sub-Conscious Discipline from Talent Law or I think you can find it in one of the SM:P Extra books also.
  In the case of SubConDisp you can (C) for 2 rounds attack for a round (C) for a round than attack for a round, etc. So it is an every other round type thing.
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Offline Finwe

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2012, 04:19:41 AM »
At least in RMSS, the rule isn't explicit, but it's hinted at in this text from Adrenal Quickdraw: "This skill does count against the one adrenal move every other round limit."

SoHK also hints at a limit with this text: "GMs may allow characters to sustain Adrenal maneuvers ... there is a cumulative penalty of -10 to the Self Control maneuver rolls after the first [round]."

Ok, I'll apply this rule.

Offline VladD

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2012, 01:01:31 PM »
There's more:

Apply the non quiet surroundings penalty (-30) and also, after several rounds, the fatigue penalty.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2018, 01:12:26 PM »
I hope it's ok to revive this old thread, but I have a follow-up question for the Mantlet spell:
The spell description says the Mantlet has 10 hits per level of the caster. And the notes say attacks against the Mantlet are done against AT 20 with 0 DB. But how do criticals get counted against the Mantlet? Should they get treated like attacks against Wall spells, i.e. an A-critical yields +5 hits up to an E-critical yielding +25 hits? Or do only the hits from the attack table count?

Offline jdale

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Re: Mantlet (Armsmaster spell)
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2018, 01:37:49 PM »
It's not stated, but since it's not going to be taking stun and injuries, it seems sensible to use the rules for structural damage which are, as you say, 5 hits per severity level of the critical, doubled for criticals inflicted by spells.
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