Topic: What if the body part in a critical doesn't exist?

[Marc R]

Again, also remember that the crit descriptions are guidelines on how the results of the critical injury can happen, not how they do happen.  Ultimately, it is up to the specific GM on how to interpret how a critical actually happens.
rmfr

I don't have my books handy, but if you check around, you should find the "If not then" rules on crit text.

Annoyingly, they might be scattered in pieces across a few books, or in an unexpected place like the creature book.

But, there's a reference to "What the $#%@ do I do if I get a severed arm on something with no arms"

If I'm not mistaken, the rule says something along the lines of "Pick some equivalency and go with it.". . .like that severed arm chops a chunk off that living ooze which then dies, harming the ooze to the tune of the same penalty the arm would have done the human.

There's a reference, which I think specifically refers to demons and/or undead, but isn't an undead only rule ala "If you get a kill result, it's a kill result, even if the prose of the kill result wouldn't kill the undead in question".

Like "Shot to heart rips it asunder, instantly killing target" would have zero effect on a skeleton, so the GM should be reading that then saying "Shot to head blows the skull into tiny pieces, the rest of the skeleton drops to the floor in a clatter of loose bone"

There's also a rule about cover, so if the target is standing behind a waist high brick wall and the result is "solid shot to the foot" the shot doesn't hit the foot blocking wall and miss, you already got the DB bonus for cover, the shot hits a hand, or something else, at the GM's choice.

Keeping those rules in mind, if for any reason a result is impossible, the GM is just supposed to have something happen that results in the exact same mechanical results. . . .so if the arm is simply impossible it hits the other arm, or a leg, or damages the shoulder of that arm to the same effect, or whatever.

Many undead and demons are immune to bleed and/or stun, as are other creatures, but they are not immune to penalties imposed by crit results, so the problems caused by crit results that are not bleed or stun always apply, if the prose text would seem to indicate a non result, then the rules do tell you to keep the mechanical result, and just GM modify the prose result so that it makes sense. . .the mechanics overrule the prose result, not vice versa.

If someone can find those rules above and post where to find them, nice, if not I'll try and find page references tonight.

[rdanhenry]

In the PBP game I'm running over on RealRoleplaying, the party is currently fighting some (flying) sharks. Those crits are not written for a fish's body, but a little adjustment and a fin gets sliced off and it works fine. I do make a head shot on a multi-headed monster only kill that one head, though, because that should be a possibility.

[jdale]

But, there's a reference to "What the $#%@ do I do if I get a severed arm on something with no arms"

If I'm not mistaken, the rule says something along the lines of "Pick some equivalency and go with it.". . .like that severed arm chops a chunk off that living ooze which then dies, harming the ooze to the tune of the same penalty the arm would have done the human.

There's a reference, which I think specifically refers to demons and/or undead, but isn't an undead only rule ala "If you get a kill result, it's a kill result, even if the prose of the kill result wouldn't kill the undead in question".

RMFRP pg 209 says "The GM should feel free to alter the description to fit the type of attack." But that's as close as I can find in RMSS (same text) or RMFRP, including Arms Law, Spell Law, Gamemaster Law, Creatures & Monsters, and the core rules. Perhaps I overlooked it, but I see no rule about this whatsoever.

I did find a Ruling issued 10/16/1999 for Creatures & Monsters: "Creatures not affected by stun still recieve penalties to actions, if the GM decides those penalties are due to physical injuries and not pain." That would have been back from the email list. I don't remember who would have issued it at that time. However, it is not so generous as what you are saying....

RM2 may have had a different rule.

[Marc R]

"Killing the Undead" on page 172 of Creatures and Monsters, and the similar text in RM2 or RMC Creatures and Treasures in the front rules part of the Undead chapter. Relating to how a "kill" result that would kill a living target causes undead to drop and/or break up.

"Key to the Criticals" on page 89 of the RMSS book is the cover rule I was referring to, about getting hit in the ankle behind a wall moving the damage to a wrist. (read the example).

RMSS Arms Law top left of page 93, first two bullet points, makes it clear the GM should feel free to change the prose description, but should rarely change the mechanical description.

Can't find the reference to cover the limb chopping the limbless, but I'm pretty sure it's out there somewhere.

They went out of their way to specify for undead, but the logic of "if you roll to a critical result it happens, work out the prose" should seem to apply to anything else, there's not a great amount of difference mechanically between a golem and a corporeal undead, and even for something non solid like a fire elemental or ooze can't be less "there" or lacking in weak points than a non corporeal ghost, and they are specified as drop/break from a kill critical too.

Just because the target doesn't have a hand doesn't mean it can ignore a critical who's prose refers to severing a hand, and just because a target doesn't have a brain or heart doesn't mean it's not killed by a result that kills due to a brain or heart shot. You're just supposed to apply the result and then figure out a way to describe it as GM to make it fit the specifics of the situation.

Those references seem to make it pretty clear that if you're attacking a target that's not completely immune to the attack, it should resolve, and if you have to change the prose result to make the mechanical result work, do so.

[Kristen Mork]

I agree that's a good general rule.  But, what about a hydra (the kind that regenerates heads).  A killing blow to the head is just about the worst result possible: the creature gets stronger!  Which is the opposite of converting the prose such that the blow remains lethal.

[Marc R]

It's supposed to be about the statistical odds of a fight, without that rule, it gets fairly close to the point where the only way to beat undead is to KO them on hits then set them on fire.

The criticals get more lethal as you climb up A-E, but if the only lethal A00 on slash / krush / puncture read to different locations (Jaw to brain, neck broken and bleed out, heart failure). . .those results all still mean dead. . .the skeleton doesn't have a brain, nor blood, so it should be immune to all those results except perhaps driving the jaw into the brain and breaking the neck, but it's still dead, so you change the prose from severed carotid to something that would kill the skeleton. Same for the hydra, it's immune to head chopping, but it still should be dead an an A00

If one wanted to be a purist in keeping to the logic, then all lethal results on that hydra would be prose shifted to the torso. . .something like "shot to the liver" or heart, or whatever. Then use all the results that read "hand" and use those to hit the hydra's heads. (That being true if they regenerate them or not)

The Hydra shouldn't get a free ride on any lethal A00 result, any more than the skeleton gets a free ride.

[arakish]

Please forgive me.  I did not read all the posts here.  Didn't have time since am at work.

Q: What if the body part in a critical doesn't exist?

A: Use logical deductive reasoning and common sense to continue the strike until it hits the next available body part.

rmfr

[Marc R]

What if the body has no parts? like an amorphous creature, or one made of gas, energy or "nothing" (Non corporeal)?

The rules above don't all sit in one place, but taken as a whole I think they piece together enough logic to deal with anything. essentially:

1) If the target has a specific immunity to elements of the damage then only those elements of the critical are negated.
(e.g. immune to stun just removes the stun elements of the result, nothing else).

2) If the prose text of the crit doesn't make sense due to the type of attack made, change the prose details so the mechanical results make sense for the type of attack made.
(e.g. if an attack with a pocket knife results in "torso split in twain Voltron style from left shoulder to right hip, target instantly killed", change the result to the realm of possibility for a pocket knife ala "Perfect stroke of the blade slices three inches into the torso from left shoulder to right hip, all internal organs fall out of the torso onto the floor, target instantly dead.")

3) If the prose text of the crit doesn't make sense due to the specific nature of the target, change the prose details so the mechanics of the result fit the nature of the target.
(e.g. The critical reads "Left leg severed, target at -80, bleeding 12/round, dead in 10 rounds." and the target is a giant amoeba change the result to fit like "Blow severs a large chunk of the creature off, internal fluids pour out of the hole which can't seem to close, target at -80, bleeding 12/round, dead in 10 rounds")

[Kristen Mork]

It's supposed to be about the statistical odds of a fight, without that rule, it gets fairly close to the point where the only way to beat undead is to KO them on hits then set them on fire.

The criticals get more lethal as you climb up A-E, but if the only lethal A00 on slash / krush / puncture read to different locations (Jaw to brain, neck broken and bleed out, heart failure). . .those results all still mean dead. . .the skeleton doesn't have a brain, nor blood, so it should be immune to all those results except perhaps driving the jaw into the brain and breaking the neck, but it's still dead, so you change the prose from severed carotid to something that would kill the skeleton. Same for the hydra, it's immune to head chopping, but it still should be dead an an A00

If one wanted to be a purist in keeping to the logic, then all lethal results on that hydra would be prose shifted to the torso. . .something like "shot to the liver" or heart, or whatever. Then use all the results that read "hand" and use those to hit the hydra's heads. (That being true if they regenerate them or not)

The Hydra shouldn't get a free ride on any lethal A00 result, any more than the skeleton gets a free ride.

Actually, I like this recommendation a lot.  It makes head proliferation a greater risk (perhaps the hydra's DB increases if you attack to avoid the "hand to head" conversion) while preserving the lethality of many 00 criticals.

[Marc R]

Well, technically the Hydra would be a L and immune to an A00, but in general that logic should work, and applies as much to a C00 result. . . .step 0 of the process above would be "0) if the target is immune due to size or specific immunity, don't even roll the critical"

In general though, I think the logic laid down for undead applies just as much for any other combatant with "different than human" body layout or weak points. Unless the target is actually immune to the attack type, the mechanical result should apply, and it's up to the GM to re-parse the prose description of what happened to make it fit that result.

[JimiSue]

On p.67 of the SM2 Player's book is a small section on critical strike interpretations:

Most of the critical strike results are self-explanatory. However, certain results may have to be modified due to circumstances (i.e. a defender behind a low wall hit by a laser receiving a critical strike calling for damage to his ankle should, instead, indicate a hit to the wrist). Similarly, if a critical strike calling for an unspecified limb to be broken or otherwise damaged is rolled, then the limb affected can be rolled randomly (unless the GM determines that certain limbs are more likely to have been hit). A stunned combatant may parry to his front at half his normal ability (unless "no parry" is indicated), but may not attack or change face.
  - all damages (including hits) unless otherwise indicated, are only applicable to the target combatant.
  - bleeding indicated on the critical strike tables is reflected in the form of additional concussion hits. This is meant to show the gradual weakening brought on by blood loss.
  - "Next swing" can refer to a fire attack as well as a melee attack.

And that's your lot. Personally, I like to try and match the affect. A leg strike is going to affect mobility, so if the critter has no legs, there will be a similarly debilitating effect on the motive form used (e.g. damage to the mucus glands means it can't slither along as effectively). In the case of the wall example, you could have a strike to the upper body somewhere that makes it so painful to stand upright, that it is reflected in a movement penalty... and so on.

I did find out something new, now I've looked for critical interpretation rules...

If a combination critical is indicated, two rolls are made, one for each critical indicated.

I've always played it where one roll is used for all results - which generally also means they all affect the same body location - an under-mentioned but rather elegant part of the the critical tables, I've always thought. I suspect I will quietly ignore having read that rule

[Marc R]

I agree, I try to make the result match the spirit of the color prose text, but I always apply the mechanical result. . .hence, with a Hydra, a head is as good as a hand (Since they are non vital appendages on the end of limbs) while any foot or tail part is good enough for a foot result.

There's another thread around here, the combo critical roll once and combo critical roll separately references show up at varied places in the books of the various versions.