Author Topic: SM: P Tech Law VM 2-4 CVC Rules Determine Minimum Crew (22) p. 117 Part 4  (Read 2274 times)

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Offline snrdg051306

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The minimum crew is the basic number of permanent personnel needed to operate the craft under normal conditions, which Step 22 in my military view of such things doesn't do.

I agree that Steps 6, 7, 14, 15, 16, 17, and, 21 are part of a minimum crew requirement.

In my experience for a lot of weapons the gunners are also the technicians that operate, repair, and maintain the systems. Of course having a gunner specialist and a weapon systems specialist is also a viable option.

A modern airliner has 2 pilots and on really long flights might have 4, so I'm kind of waffling on this one.

I also agree that there should be general personnel to maintain the hull, which I think is what the "General personnel as per tonnage." meant on SM: P VM p. 117

Steps 34 Fighter Bays and 35 Vehicle Bays are, if I understand the rule correctly, for maintaining the carried craft. The hangar crew on a carrier is part of the squadron being carried not the ship's permanent crew and would not be part of the minimum crew. However, if the crew for the fighter/vehicle crew is for maintaining the appropriate bays then they would, again in my opinion, qualify as a minimum crew requirement.

Additional Crew members (Pilots, Scientists, Marines, etc.) are nor in my opinion minimum requirements and should be a separate entry.

Medical Dispensary (29) probably has a permanent medic assigned similar to submarines.

Sick Bay (30) needs to have a minimum crew since someone has to oversee surgeries no matter how good automated systems are in the SM: P universe.

Is the cargo hold serviced by members of the general personnel calculation?

My straining my brain and fingers now so I'll close for now.
Tom R

Offline markc

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The minimum crew is the basic number of permanent personnel needed to operate the craft under normal conditions, which Step 22 in my military view of such things doesn't do.

Is the cargo hold serviced by members of the general personnel calculation?

My straining my brain and fingers now so I'll close for now.


 IMHO yes, almost any general area of the ship is maintained by General Crew requirement.


 Also I would like to redo the ships listings in long form (different from how they are represented in Sm:P VM) to add some more distinction to the info provided. So min crew, optional crew, general crew, combat crew, full/max crew including carried personnel, etc might be possibilities for entries on the new long form but I probably so not need all of them.
 This might/would change some of the entries for the rules but could be very useful for gaming.


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Offline snrdg051306

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See I told you I was straining my brain and my ability to notice what I was typing.

Part of the issue about minimum crew is the constant use (> 50 hours) statement. I'd have the criteria set by the size of the vessel and what type of cargo is being carried. In this case I consider cargo as anybody or anything not required to operate the craft.

Here is my take on minimum crew:

Any craft designed for movement requires a minimum crew of 1 pilot/driver. Otherwise the crew compliment has to be based on the systems installed and the purpose of the craft.

Each craft that operates for <= 50 hours requires a minimum of support staff of 1, the support crew could be trained on more than one system, for Step 6, 7, 14, 15, 16, and 17 if the item is installed. Step 21 is what I'd call engineering and requires at least 1 tech, again the person could be trained on more than one system.

Steps 29 Medical Dispensary should have at least 1 crew member that is either a dedicated medic or crossed trained to perform the duties.

Step 30 Sick Bay should have at least 1 trained doctor assigned.

Steps 31 might have a dedicated lab crew if the craft is designed to do research of some type.

Step 32 would have dedicated crew depending on the crafts size and purpose. A tender with workshops would have dedicated crew to use the spaces. A short range tug with a workshop usually doesn't have dedicated personnel.

Step 33 again depending on the craft's purpose may or may not have dedicated personnel. A military tender probably has a security station to house small arms which would be controlled by either the gunnery tech assigned to the weapons workshop.

Steps 34 and 35 per SM: P VM determine the support crew for the the carried fighters and vehicles. One 100-ton TMACs require a minimum of 1 support staff, which doesn't, in my opinion, cover every system on board the craft. The TMAC has a normal space drive, weapons, comm systems, sensors, power plant, defensive screens, EW, and a PDS. The drive and power plant tech could be a single being. Comms, EW, and Sensors could also be 1 person. The weapons and PDS could also be a single tech. This mean the craft would have 3 support techs in addition to the crew needed to support the launch and vehicle bay systems which would be based on the bay mass ÷ 100.

Of course this is just off the top of my head based on Navy boot camp and stuff I've seen on TV.
Tom R

Offline Marc R

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I'd assume there's a lot of general maintenance going on. . .my father in law's descriptions of Navy life in peacetime involved a lot of:

Scrape it, paint it, sweep it, swab it, scrape it. . . .

When you cleared for action every man was either operating a system or in a damage control party, but the rest of the time is spent on a constant evolution of maintenance, cleaning, loading, counting and stowing and unloading.

Then again, you might be doing more maintenance than is strictly needed, to keep the crew busy.
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Offline snrdg051306

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He forgot to mention eat, sleep, watch movies, qualify on something. Oh, yes I forgot to mention training.

Tom R

Offline NanoEther

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It's been a few years (1991-1995), so some of the organization has changed. I do know about rating changes (how tech jobs are broken down), but not organizational changes. AE/AT were already collocated, as were AMS/AMH (which became AM), PR & AME had separate shops (PRs took care of personal flight gear while AMEs maintained seats & other escape gear).

Naval aviation has the following shops: Airframes (structure & mechanical), Power Plants (engines & power systems), Electrical/Electronics (self explanatory), Ordinance (weapon systems), Quality Assurance (final inspection, certification of work), Line Shack (general care of aircraft), PR & Seats (should be combined in sm into escape equipment), Aviation Supply & admin (ordering parts for ac, maintaining flight and maintenance records). In addition, there are general admin, general supply, mess, and medical personnel assigned.

The maintenance crews are dependent on type and number of aircraft (PRs are based on number of pilots, which are based on number of craft) while the additional crew is dependent on the size of the maintenance crew. Note that some of the additional crew works in areas run by the hosting command (airbase, carrier). This helps the host command support the additional personnel that the squadron brings with it. And of course there are the pilots, they also work as officer heads of each shop + admin. There are more pilots then aircraft, about twice as many. (hmmm, going to have to find my cruise book so I can give better numbers, but this'll do for now)

most squadrons have 10 aircraft assigned, the average number of techs assigned to each shop is around 10 (low of 4 to 6 up to 30 in line), and there are 8 shops. So, going by these numbers, each squadron needs around 8 techs per craft, it isn't an equal mix. Generally, you have more line then anything else, followed by the maintenance shops. considering that a line shack has around 30, there's 3 line per craft, many of the other shops are one tech for a certain number of aircraft.

The more I go, the more sure I am that my numbers are off, but the general idea is solid. I'll update the numbers when I find my cruise book.

On to the construction rules:

Personally, you should have the option to buy the various parts of the hangar/vehicle bay piecemeal. breaking it down into Hangar (storage/maintenance access), workshops/offices, additional parts storage, launch areas, recovery areas, and hangar control (which is a host command area and carriers have their own crews responsible for moving aircraft in the hangars and on the flight deck). Some of these can be collocated, launch & recovery is an obvious (helipads on small ships), but they may not be (aircraft carriers, battlestar galactica). A small ship may have room for a craft, but why can't it use an already purchased workshop for maintaining the craft? Also, how the craft are arranged in the bay can affect the volume requirements greatly.

Real life example:
1) The squadron was doing joint training maneuvers with the airforce and were on an AF base. A nearby volcano spit some dust in the air and the aircraft needed to be put in a hangar. 8 f-14s were there but we had been assigned a hangar that would fit 4 or 5. In an hour or two, all of the jets were in the hangar.
2) I have walked across the hangar bay (about 50 feet) without coming down off of the aircraft.

On a carrier, not only are there squadron workshops, but there are additional workshops for higher level aircraft maintenance (AIMD), and then there are workshops for maintaining the ships equipment.
Then there are examples of alternate storage/deployment options, such as parasite docks which aren't covered.

So, I'm still working on numbers, I'll post them once I've fleshed them out
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Offline snrdg051306

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Hi NanoEther,

Thanks for the reply and reminding me about the topic of crews in SpaceMaster.

With the updated site can you tell me how to get the newest post as the first listing instead of the last?
Tom R

Offline NanoEther

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Only thing I can see that might work is the "show new replies to your posts"  link under the Hello message at the top of the page. Might be something buried in the profile settings I didn't see.

Like a lot of other people, looks like I'm going to have to rewrite the construction system a bit. I'm also working on the idea of Payload Modules, basically big brother to the Payload Pallet. They can represent anything from cargo containers (semi trailers, shipping containers, mobile workshops/offices/labs) to add-on modules (the Garfish from robotech and others). IF I can find a related post I'll post there, if not I'll start a new thread.

Offline snrdg051306

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Evening (PST) NanoEther,

I looked in show new replies, but it didn't seem to do what I wanted.

Best receommendation is to start a new topic. Of course my luck with forum search features is pretty bad.

The pallet module sounds like a good idea. I'll be watching for your posts.

Have a good one.
Tom R