Author Topic: Spell Mastery: Durations  (Read 3602 times)

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Offline markc

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2010, 01:48:58 PM »
Not an official rule but GM reasoned rule. 
  IMHO being struck by two firebolts in the same action % would be x1.5 D and normal crits. If the attacks are at vastly separate action %'s then normal damage for each. Or if the attacks are on opposite sides of the target they both would do damage normally.
  My reasoning is that since a round is 10s long; that is a lot of time to be able to be attacked and when an attack occurs matters as well as where the attacks come from matters. There is only so much surface area to try to burn and only so much O2 to burn around the target. That is if you do not rule that it is magical fire that does not need anything to burn to sustain it or make it bigger.


Another question that arises out of the 2 spells Talent is what if their is only one target and yourself? Do you have to target yourself or can you turn the talent off?


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Offline Marc R

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2010, 02:23:06 PM »
I think RDan meant you can't "double up" a target ala "Now make five RRs vs sleep V my solo 1st level opponent."

Usually, if you use SM in the RAW, without the GM standing there saying "Wow, that's book legal, but the answer is no in this game" then things get out of hand.
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Offline Nders

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2010, 03:18:37 PM »
Quote
I think RDan meant you can't "double up" a target ala "Now make five RRs vs sleep V my solo 1st level opponent."

Agreed.

Usually, if you use SM in the RAW, without the GM standing there saying "Wow, that's book legal, but the answer is no in this game" then things get out of hand.

Agreed as well.

The consensus seems to be that you should not allow additional targets gained from SM or talent to target the same object/person.

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2010, 03:47:02 PM »
I have used that shotgun effect before, with word of death, cast by a Nazgul many years ago.

It is a powerful option, but in a high magic world, it makes sense.  Imagine magic missile in RM terms; mutiple shortbow attacks against the same target, each with its own attack roll and possible critical resoltion.  High magic.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2010, 10:50:10 PM »
In my game, I stay far away from using SM to increase damage. There are no X2, X3 hits that SM provides.
Yes you can add an additional TARGET. IMHO, the same spell can't affect one target twice. That specific TARGET has been declared.

GM's don't particularly like SM damage increases. SM can be easier to develop than Spell Ranks.
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For my game specifically, this would be Munchkin. I allow SM to increase Range, Duration, AoE, Bolt to Balls (be careful!), Hollow Balls, Following/Cornering/Ricochet Bolts, Off/On (C) Durations, Additional Targets and other nonsense, but not damage/ Crit multipliers.

This may have been cleared up in an errata
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Offline markc

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2010, 11:00:29 PM »
I do not think so as the SM options are listed in SoHK.


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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2010, 11:27:17 PM »
Multiple targets is not the same thing as multiple hits on one target. Those few spells (like Repel Undead) that *do* allow spell power to specifically focus on a single target say so, which implies that only spells that say so have this option. In the case of multiple bolts, I can see the argument, as the spell creates and launches physical fire bolts that could presumably then hit anything. However, by the same logic, I would say that the description of the "Area of Effect" as "1 target" for bolt spells is wrong, as the magic actually affects one bolt, which then may be launched at a target. I could also see taking the +1 target effect and ruling that the bolt hits the primary target, then "leaps" to the secondary target (with a +0 OB - even Triad bolt spells don't let you apply Directed Spells skill multiple times). Depends on how "magical" the GM wants the elements to be. If Fire Bolt launches normal fire by means of magic, that's a bit different from a Fire Bolt of magical fire.

When it comes to multiplying concussion hit damage, that was available in RM2 core (or at least it was a Spell Law option). However, instead of buying a skill up to boost for free, you spent extra PPs. I think the threat of mega-Fire Balls is probably more a balance concern, especially if you let Spell Master stack with Talents and with Spell Enhancement. That could get seriously gross.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2010, 06:11:39 AM »
Hence the GM sometimes needing to nod and say "Yes, that is book legal, but no.", I suspect that TWC is the only other skill that's come as close in terms of creating controversy and thread length.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2010, 07:01:53 AM »
It is a powerful option, but in a high magic world, it makes sense.  Imagine magic missile in RM terms; mutiple shortbow attacks against the same target, each with its own attack roll and possible critical resoltion.  High magic.
That would be a tough spell!
Would Magic Missile be closer to a -25 shortbow attack, with +5 OB/lvl. Positive OB may be split between multiple missiles/targets in +5 increments. Or go the I, II, III route. Hehe.. Magic Missile X, Lord Missile!

One of the most handy spells in that game, may not be as lethal in RM.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2010, 07:20:15 AM »
There's a spell, I believe it's "Magic Dart" but I could be misremembering, for HARP, which essentially went for the MM effect. . . .and cast at higher scales/levels using it as written would blow dragons to mist. . .there's a lengthy thread on it somewhere.

Keep in mind that IIRC MM in AD&D is 1/odd level, so a 7th level mage peppers you with 4 bolts a 19th level mage peppers with 10. . .with RM, where crits kill/TKO you roughly 8% of the time, there's a point where having 4 (much less 10) crit rolls made each attack a serious problem. . .one of the reasons lightning bolt is so deadly is simply because at the top of the chart it does three criticals. . .but at least RAW that's 1 roll for three results, so still 8% roughly chance of being taken out directly, though more chance of being downed by accumulated stun/hits/penalty. Multiple separate attacks means multiple separate crit rolls. . .which due to the 8%/per crit issue means you're way upping lethality before you even consider issues like stun/hits/penalty. . . it's not twice the damage, it's twice the chance of directly taking you out that makes allowing it really problematic.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2010, 07:34:22 AM »
.with RM, where crits kill/TKO you roughly 8% of the time, there's a point where having 4 (much less 10) crit rolls made each attack a serious problem. . .one of the reasons lightning bolt is so deadly is simply because at the top of the chart it does three criticals. . .but at least RAW that's 1 roll for three results, so still 8% roughly chance of being taken out directly, though more chance of being downed by accumulated stun/hits/penalty

LM.. can you cite this pg please? We've always made separate rolls.
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Offline markc

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2010, 09:54:23 AM »
It is a powerful option, but in a high magic world, it makes sense.  Imagine magic missile in RM terms; mutiple shortbow attacks against the same target, each with its own attack roll and possible critical resoltion.  High magic.
That would be a tough spell!
Would Magic Missile be closer to a -25 shortbow attack, with +5 OB/lvl. Positive OB may be split between multiple missiles/targets in +5 increments. Or go the I, II, III route. Hehe.. Magic Missile X, Lord Missile!

One of the most handy spells in that game, may not be as lethal in RM.


 For am MM in RM I think I would just have it do damage only maybe 1d10/2 or 1d10 depending on LvL. I also do not know if I would allow the DS skill to apply to every missile or use the Combat Companion (tweaked) to develop s style that allows a skilled person to use DS skill with more than one bolt or I might just have them do a full OB first MM, -xx OB second MM and so for and so on.


Does that make sense?
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Offline Kristen Mork

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2010, 02:55:44 PM »
Quote
Can you cite this pg please? We've always made separate rolls.

Spell Law, section 8.8.4 (page 261): Certain critical strikes fall in the range of 'F', 'G' ... A separate roll is made for each critical and all results are applied cumulatively.

Arms Law, section 5.6.4 (page 122): Certain critical strikes have an 'F' severity ... A single roll is made for both criticals and all results are applied cumulatively.

Treasure Companion 9.3.1 (page 49): The weapon delivers an extra critical ... The critical uses the same critical roll as the original critical.

So, clearly spells that exceed 'E' severity allow for multiple rolls.  "Additional" critical effects (e.g., from ice-enchanted weapons or some talents) use the same roll.  In the RAW, weapons that exceed 'E' severity do not allow for multiple rolls, but I think I like the notion that exceeding 'E' severity provides for extra rolls, but "additional" criticals do not.

Offline Marc R

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2010, 08:56:00 PM »
Hmm, I'd always assumed the same roll was a blanket rule. . .learn something new every day.

It's a major difference though, an 8% chance of being taken out is a 92% chance of staying up (slightly less for the fact the hits/stun might take you out) shifts to 16/84 for two rolls and 22/78 for three rolls unless my math is off.

It's bad enough eating a J as is. . . .I love the tingle of danger RM puts into combat, but a it gets excessive. . .I far prefer my PCs pulped to the edge of death by an 80 roll applied across three tables, and having a story to tell later. I guess that's just a house rule at my table.

But, in context of MM, the progression of crit survival is:

Out of fight/perhaps still up
1Crit     8/92
2Crit     16/84
3Crit     22/78
4Crit     28/72
5Crit     34/66
6Crit     39/61
7Crit     44/56
8Crit     49/51
9Crit     53/47
10Crit    57/43

The progression, converting something like MM to RM rapidly gets out of hand, though MarkC's answer of applying flat damage, not crits, might more resemble the concept of MM, though in RM terms it would be less "Magic Missile" and more like "Magic Taser".
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Offline markc

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2010, 10:10:09 PM »
   Another option for additional crits is use the Rule from SM:P and plasma weapons or simply have additional crits work of the first crit roll and have some mod to it. For example roll a 85 and 2nd crit gets a (85-20=65) 65 for the second crit. You can use some other # besides 20 as I just made that up.
 
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2010, 10:54:58 PM »
Quote
Can you cite this pg please? We've always made separate rolls.

Spell Law, section 8.8.4 (page 261): Certain critical strikes fall in the range of 'F', 'G' ... A separate roll is made for each critical and all results are applied cumulatively.

Arms Law, section 5.6.4 (page 122): Certain critical strikes have an 'F' severity ... A single roll is made for both criticals and all results are applied cumulatively.

Treasure Companion 9.3.1 (page 49): The weapon delivers an extra critical ... The critical uses the same critical roll as the original critical.

That Spell Law quote is from the section on using Spell Law without Rolemaster, so it cannot be considered definitive. Unfortunately, the section on criticals in the RMSR is silent on the subject. It is either hidden away somewhere non-obvious or there is no actual RMSS rule stating whether additional critical from elemental attacks above an 'E' crit should be on the same roll or multiple rolls. This may call for a ruling.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Spell Mastery: Durations
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2010, 11:11:20 PM »
The rule goes back to RM2, 1989 SL page 20, that section uses much of the same text, lifted directly, so I don't think that ruling was made unintentionally, it appears the quoted text from the RMSS book is the RAW, even if I personally disagree with it, and house rule spells to follow the same rules as weapons and additional crits.
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