Topic: Spell Mastery question (proposed HR)

[ToM]

Yesterday night our magician used Spell Mastery to multiply a Fireball's area of effect 3x.
The effect was devastating at the expense of only a few rounds preparation (I already ruled time ago that any spell mastery maneuver suffers a penalty equal to the SCSM/BAR, but said maneuver can be offset with prep).

I felt Spell Mastery is, this way, very overpowered, at least with the penalties listed on CL.
So, I ruled "on fly" that any multiplying effect attained with a spell mastery maneuver also increases the base cost of the spell by x times were x is the sum of the multipliers (a-la D&D 3.5). So a x3 range firebolt with 2x targets will have a total (3+2=)5x base cost multiplier, resulting in a 30PPs expenditure. Same way, yesterday's Fireball costed tha character 3x8=24 PPs.

Feedbacks?

[pastaav]

Seems like a sensible ruling.

[VladD]

In the vault you can find Gm Joeri's house rules: there my nephew wrote a simple and effective spell mastery rule, based on the one in School of Hard Knocks, except it makes the spells cost more PP and have higher lvls. We balanced it off the higher spells on the spell lists. More powerful effects would be out of the league of normal spell users and they wouldn't benefit too much from casting low lvl spells spell mastered to have higher effects.
Also we took out a couple of snags (those single target mind affecting spells spell mastered to become areas of effect for example ;P).

Another big warning goes out to spell casters: Playing around with overcasting is SURE to bring you failure. Careless spell caster invite the chance of failure TWICE every time they do not comply with the casting spells automatically rules. Its just not worth it blowing up your mage just to show off your spell mastery.
I certainly recommend using a RM2 rule where any spell failure would be rolled on the appropriate spell fumble table with every penalty taken on the casting the spell; is applied as a bonus to the failure roll. That should make mages more cautious.

Play!

[Fidoric]

It seems logical, greater area of effect = more power needed to fuel the spell.
OTOH, this is very close to a scalable spell, isn't it ?

[Marc R]

Or at least, to the options in RM2 spell law for more PP use for greater spell effects.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I felt Spell Mastery is, this way, very overpowered, at least with the penalties listed on CL.
So, I ruled "on fly" that any multiplying effect attained with a spell mastery maneuver also increases the base cost of the spell by x times were x is the sum of the multipliers (a-la D&D 3.5). So a x3 range firebolt with 2x targets will have a total (3+2=)5x base cost multiplier, resulting in a 30PPs expenditure. Same way, yesterday's Fireball costed tha character 3x8=24 PPs.

Feedbacks?

I would also say that the casting level of the spell should be based on the number of PP required and that it only be allowed if the caster has that many ranks in the spell list (and don't forget to apply ESF mods based on that spell's new casting level).

Thus, that 3x Fireball is a 24 level spell and requires that he has 24 ranks in the spell list to cast (otherwise he cannot cast it), and that if he isn't 24th level, that he has to deal with ESF for casting over his level.

[markc]

ToM;
 I agree with you that IMO the SM skill should cost more in PP or time or something to balance out its power. It eats up PP for the cast but lets them decide to use them if they need to in a tight spot. I would like to see/hear more about how it goes in your game.


VladD;
 I will have to check out your nephew's article. But I also sort of like the idea that you can alter spells by paying more PP.


MDC

[ToM]

I would also say that the casting level of the spell should be based on the number of PP required and that it only be allowed if the caster has that many ranks in the spell list (and don't forget to apply ESF mods based on that spell's new casting level).
Thus, that 3x Fireball is a 24 level spell and requires that he has 24 ranks in the spell list to cast (otherwise he cannot cast it), and that if he isn't 24th level, that he has to deal with ESF for casting over his level.

Very evil. I like it 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Not evil, just logical (at least, to me it is simply logical).  And it fits in well with the rest of the spell system so that Spell Mastered spells do not break the rules of that spell system.

[Marc R]

That's essentially the logic behind the original "vary the PP" options in RM2, don't have the RM2 books handy, but it's options 3.1 and 3.2 in RMC SL pages 26 and 27. . .it even notes that you shouldn't allow more PP to be used than the caster's level, unless you allow overcasting.

Somewhere in the Companions, thence into RMSS, the logic of those two options was absorbed into Spell Mastery, and somewhere in the spindle and fold, the limitation of increased power level = increased PP was lost.

Then again, those two spells also tied the idea of the casual level based multipliers, like 1 round per level duration, being tied to the PP also, as well as the RR level the spell was resisted against. . .which certainly made it harder for a 20th level mage to pop off 3rd level BAR spells for a measly 3 pp that resisted as a 20th level attack. . .

Some players might say those options full out turn casting into too much of a PP drain for high level casters, but the basic logic of power = PP does tend to act as a control on casters. . . .and rarely do people complain that in RM casters are just too weak next to those towering pure arms characters.

IIRC, there were also some issues with being able to toss off x5 hits Shock Bolts, due to those spells appearing so low level. . .

[ToM]

Also it does fit well with our "chain casting" rules which we use to allow multiple utility instant spells to be cast the same round (as per the suggestion of pastaav some threads ago).

In fact, the actual spell level of any spell cast this way is the sum of all the other spells cast before AND the spell itself, and you only can cast spells in order from the lower level one to the higher.

Scalable spells, definitely

[yammahoper]

Hoe about a set pp requirement for the increased effect, with mnv mod, but NOT increasing the effective level of the spell?

+1 target, +2pp, -20mnv.
5' rad, +2pp, -30mnv.
10' rad, +4pp, -50mnv.

etc.

The spell exist, the spell mastery is to modify an existing spell.  Make a very nasty Spell Mastery Fumble Table too.

Increasing the effective level of the spell, and thus the skill ranks needed in the spell list, and thus the dificulty of the SCSM, seems awful harsh.  Balance can be reached without nuetering the skill.  Yes, a level 8 caster could have 24 ranks in fire law, but I never see that pattern of development because ocer casting more than 5 levels is just to hard and dangerous.

[Marc R]

The issue there, at least for me, is that if an 8th level caster can effectively get off a 24th level spell effect just by sucking down some penalties, which in RMSS are often counterbalanced by a bunch of rounds of taking extra time, waving your hands in the air and shouting. . . it throws my games out of balance.

Why can't the thief pick a lock as if they're 3x their actual level?

Why can't the fighter swing a sword as if they're 3x their level?

I won't deny there's a sexy, cinematic fun to throwing around magic way over your weight class, but it tips the game in favor of spell casters. . . .even further many would say.

If you then toss in rules to allow the fighter and thief to do the above, then why tweak at all, the problem would seem not to be that the casting logic needs tweaking, but that in the game in question, everyone wants to play 24th level characters.

Why not just play high level, rather than fiddle?

[yammahoper]

Give a thief time, and any lock will be opened.  Without a roll and at no danger even.

It is not a 24th level spell.  If up against a Dispell Essence spell, would you have the spell resist at level 6 or 24?  I say level 6.  The matrix of the spell is level 6 pumped up with considerable power, not a 24th level spell.

Look at it this way; big fancy Mercedes rims on your Toyato does not make it a Mercedes.

[markc]

 I would like to see the SM options written into each spell description.
MDC

[rdanhenry]

I deal with the Spell Mastery issue by dialing it down to its origin as tweaking a spell within its parameters rather than pumping the power as it became in RMSS. So I really have no basis for judging this treatment. My only comment is that standard Rolemaster treatment is that 3x and 2x combine to make 4x, not 5x (i.e., they are treated as +200% plus +100% equals +300%).

[Marc R]

Yamma,

Having your firebolt burn green instead of orange is like painting your car a new color. . .taking a 1 target spell that normally costs 10 pp and making it two targets for 12pp is getting a Mercedes for the cost of a Toyota. . .getting it for 20pp (i.e. zero discount) is already a major bennie, in that you can cast once, roll once, in one action, and hit two targets with it, rather than needing to cast it twice over two rounds (or more).

PP are a rough gauge of overall power, and if you let someone cast 20pp modified spells, you might as well let them cast 20th level spells.

MarKc,

Wouldn't that just turn RM casting into HARP casting? (You can fairly easily use HARP magic in RM if you wanted to)

Rdan,

Usually the same here, as otherwise it gets way out of hand. . .and the scaling by PP thing is handy usually only if the casters get really into it and are down with yet another layer of math in play.

[markc]

LordMiller;
 Yes it is a combo of HARP and RM style spell casting.
MDC

[VladD]

I took the liberty of reproducing my house rule concerning spell mastery. We checked many lists to make sure the costs were in line with higher lvl spells on those lists. We addressed many concerns about making it overpowered, such as stacking minor area of effect manipulations or making spells in to area of effects and all concerns about self to touch, etc.
We feel it is the most honost spell mastery system you can have. It is between allowing mages 3x lvl overcasting and making a 3x radius ball spell cost 24 PP.


Thanks to Hayo Timmerman for rewriting this skill:

These are the new parameters within one can modify spells, using spell mastery. It cannot be stressed enough that spell mastery must be developed for each list separately. Also that every change must make a Spell Casting Static Maneuver afterward, as if overcasting, or defaulting on spell preparation. (Though not in our campaign: See 8.0 spells, but add all the modifiers to the Base, or Elemental Attack roll. (devious mad GM laughter))
It is not possible to go beyond the stated parameters in anyway. The extra levels on the spells will use up PP and will count towards overcasting.
Non elemental spells cannot be made in to areas, ever.
Modifying the range:
1/2x range adds 2 lvl's to the spell being cast (-10 on SM roll)
x2 range adds 4 lvl's to the spell being cast (-20 on SM roll)
x3 range adds 6 lvl's to the spell being cast (-30 on SM roll)
x4 range adds 8 lvl's to the spell being cast (-40 on SM roll)
x5 range adds 10 lvl's to the spell being cast (-50 on SM roll)

Caster/self to target/touch is banned.
Touch to 10 feet: Doubles the lvl of the spell being cast and may not use any extra range modifier. (-30 on SM roll).

Modifying the area of effect:
1/2x area adds 2 lvl's to the spell being cast (-10 SM roll)
x2 area adds 4 lvl's to the spell being cast (-20 on SM roll)
x3 area adds 8 lvl's to the spell being cast (-30 on SM roll)
x4 area adds 16 lvl's to the spell being cast (-40 on SM roll)
x5 area adds 24 lvl's to the spell being cast (-50 on SM roll)

1 additional target: Doubles the lvl of the spell being cast (and just 1 additional target!!!) (OB 1st target as normal, 2nd target: list ranks +AgAgSD + misc bonuses) (-30 on SM roll)
Bolt spells: From target to 10 feet Radius add 5 lvl's to the spell being cast and may not use any extra area of effect modifier. (-50 on SM roll)

Modifying the duration:
1/2 duration adds 1 lvl to the spell being cast (-10 SM roll)
x2 duration adds 2 lvl's to the spell being cast (-20 on SM roll)
x3 duration adds 4 lvl's to the spell being cast (-30 on SM roll)
x4 duration adds 6 lvl's to the spell being cast (-40 on SM roll)
x5 duration adds 8 lvl's to the spell being cast (-50 on SM roll)

No duration to 1 round is banned.
Concentration to 1 round/lvl is banned.
Concentration to 1 minute/lvl is banned.

SM results and modifiers on the SCSM roll (are in the table).
Spectacular Failure: -30
Absolute Failure: -20
Failure: -10
Unusual Event: +5
Partial Success: +0
Unusual Success: +25
Near Success: +10
Success: +20
Absolute Success: +30

Play fair!

[ToM]

Nice advice here VlaD!
I'm going to test your rules which seem very reasonable...