Topic: Criticals with dead in X rounds

[markc]

I am going to disagree with the assertion that lifekeeping puts the body in suspended animation. Saying that keeping the soul in the body prevents deterioration because the body isn't really dead is the same as saying stat deterioration doesn't occur till after the soul leaves the body which is clearly not true based on the rules on death, dying and stat deterioration. Using a lifekeeping simply keeps the soul attached to the remains for an amount of time (varying on the spell used). the body could rot like crazy and the soul would still be attached. Preservation would keep that body from rotting. It would really take both spells to carry a corpse around for any length of time and have it repaired at some time after the "death" event.

 I have always used the spells as you have described above.


MDC

[providence13]

Using a lifekeeping simply keeps the soul attached to the remains for an amount of time (varying on the spell used). the body could rot like crazy and the soul would still be attached.

That's the way I read it, too. Incidentally, also a pretty good guarantee for a haunting.

Preservation would keep that body from rotting.
IMHO, this keeps undead in tip-top shape.

[DangerMan]

OK. Old topic - still relevant problem.

Is there anyone around to give an official ruling these days?

Oh, and please set this right in RMU, will you?

[Frabby]

Just had this situation in our group: A character suffered a E bash crit with a roll of 90 from an orcish mace.
- Neck hit. Check, makes sense.
- Bone crushed. Doesn't say which bone(s) though, which will get important further down
- Artery severed. Ouch. Guess that means bleeding to death, although no hits/rd number is given.
- Cannot breathe. We had difficulties determining what exactly that meant.
- Dies in 12 inactive rounds.

I am a rather benevolent GM when it comes to deciding results, in part because we play on Middle-Earth where death is permanent and resurrection is flat out.
That said, here's  how we interpreted that particular hit:

1) Nowhere does it say the character is unconscious, ergo he remains conscious. (This was the first hit, and he had plenty hitpoints remaining.)
2) "Inactive" translates as -100 to all actions in RM, judging from how that is what applies to actions when you have lost the use of a limb needed for the action.
3) No malus is mentioned, which means there is no nerve damage. That in turn we interpreted to mean the character's "shattered bone" could not have been the neck or spine; we figured it'd be a skull or collarbone fracture instead. Also, there's no extra organ or tissue damage mentioned. Despite what the initial description would make you think, we're apparently not looking at a crushed neck here.
4) There's unspecified bleeding from a severed artery that will not kill for another 12 rounds (and even then isn't clearly spelled out as the reason for death, but it seemed the best guess in this case). In such cases our group divides the character's total hitpoints + constitution by 12 to determine the # of hits/rd the injury evidently inflicts, assuming it will kill him after round 12. As the hit is a blunt trauma, I figured it would be internal bleeding.
5) Similarly, while the character can't breathe it won't kill him for another 12 rounds at least (~3 minutes = ca. 18 rounds of oxygen starvation is held to be a critical threshold for humans in real life). No reason is given, but as there's no extra tissue or organ damage it wouldn't be a crushed windpipe. I figured it would rather be blood running down his throat (presumably from a minor injury, I don't think this could be the artery) or swelling from the general blunt trauma.

Laying on his back in the darkness and almost helpless, the player announced that he would reach for the herb bag on his belt and stuff whatever he could grab down his throat, in any order. This is allowed at a rate of 2 herbs per round (even under -100), as he hasn't lost the use of his arms and it's a trivial action.

The character swallowed Mirenna berries at a rate of 2 per round, healing 10 hits each, and thereby cancelling out his hits/round blood loss and extending his remaining 12 rounds lifespan. During the 7th round dice indicated he ingested the sole dose of Tulaxar, which will stop "all bleeding" in 1d10 rounds (rolled a 5). Thus, the artery injury was not life-threatening anymore after round 12.

It took the rest of the group 42 rounds to (mostly) clear out the orc post, establish a safe perimeter and get someone to help the downed character. In round 43, someone finally arrived to provide first aid. I handwaved this to be sufficient to rescue him from suffocation, given that the injury we had deemed the primary one (the artery) had been stabilized.

Although I had him roll for it, he didn't become addicted to Mirenna after munching down 14 berries/doses straight. 

[providence13]

Frabby,

On your point of 4) above, that's a neat mechanic and I appreciate where you're coming from.
We had several ways to rule similar incidents. But for my games, I don't see death as a "hits/round" issue. If you were my GM, I'd respect your ruling.

There's also shock. People can die from shock. Your system is overloaded, for whatever reason and you start to die. For me, this can supersede hits/rnd.
If the character had -100 to all actions, getting something from hand to mouth wouldn't be trivial, IMHO. We say it is possible to choke on berries. It all depends on the roll (maneuver) and how you interpret the chart.

I also wouldn't have the Mirenna berries stop hits/rnd if they only heal hits. It can buy you time, sure. But you still have hits/rnd. At rnd 7, the Tulaxar makes this a moot point; if he is still alive.

Again, I'm not picking apart your ruling. I respect everything you said. You're the GM. It's your call. It's just fun for me to discuss these points and ideas.

I like the fact that you still roll for addiction.

[jdale]

The -100 penalty ("inactive") has to come from somewhere, bleeding and suffocating alone wouldn't do that in my opinion. I don't know that I would completely rule out nerve damage. On the other hand I am inclined to be generous when a PC death is on the line. I probably would have required a roll for getting the herbs, and if he survived then would assume there is some nerve damage to recover from when doing the recovery rolls. Whether it's reasonable to swallow after your neck has been crushed that way, I don't know, but again inclined to be generous and let them try.

[DangerMan]

Just to clarify; I would like a ruling on whether lifekeeping is a higher tier of the preservation spell. If you've got the former, do you need the latter?

[Defendi]

BTW, as the Spacemaster author I'm not allowed to give an official lifekeeping ruling, but I respect Frabby's handling of the situation.  Like providence13, I might have gone a different way on a ruling or two, but coming up with creative interpretations on crits and their effects are the heart of Rolemaster for me. 

[yammahoper]

- Neck hit. Check, makes sense.
- Bone crushed. Doesn't say which bone(s) though, which will get important further down
- Artery severed. Ouch. Guess that means bleeding to death, although no hits/rd number is given.
- Cannot breathe. We had difficulties determining what exactly that meant.
- Dies in 12 inactive rounds.

Bone crush: vertabe are broken/shattered, so neck is broken.  When a crit inicates area is destroyed/incapacitated without listing a penalty to activity, penalty is assumed to be -100.

Artery/Vien;  one is severed and bleeding internally (here I quick d10, on 1-2 bleeding is open wound, 3-0 internal).  Hits per round would be 10 in my game, but after 12 rounds heart stops as entire circulatory system collapses from loss of pressure.  Death results no matter how many hits remain.

Cannot breath: Co mod +10 is base number of rounds breath can be held before passing out, so PC may pass out before 12th round, regardless he dies of suffocation after Co mod +10 rounds. 

Dies in 12 inactive rounds: collapse into extreme shock, can do nothing.

Nerve Damage: 1/2 penalty to activity is standard chance of nerve damage if none is listed.  Note that is permenant nerve damage, which would end adventuring career.

To repeair: Shatter repair (any other bone repair will stabalize injury only, roll normal revovery).  Cartilage repair (assume throat is damaged from severity of blow and inability to breath).  Nerve repair: without target is paralyzed and may die even if all other injuries are repaired.  Co mod x3 + Bod Dev ranks +d100 - wound penalty with results under 100 indicating target dies in number of days equal to ranks in body dev (unless treated).

This is BAD mambajamba wound and will require some serious healing magic/surgical skills to survive.

[Frabby]

I also wouldn't have the Mirenna berries stop hits/rnd if they only heal hits. It can buy you time, sure. But you still have hits/rnd. At rnd 7, the Tulaxar makes this a moot point; if he is still alive.

The Mirenna berries didn't reduce the hits/rd, they just replenished hit points about as fast as he was bleeding them off (a bit faster actually). I know this is straight rules-lawyering as the lost hit points were blood loss which Mirenna is unlikely to replenish, but like I said, I wanted to give the character a chance to avoid dying. I honestly had no idea what he even had in his herb bag when the ruling was made, and neither had the player. No kidding.

Bone crush: vertabe are broken/shattered, so neck is broken.  When a crit inicates area is destroyed/incapacitated without listing a penalty to activity, penalty is assumed to be -100.

Penalty -100: That's what I figured, though we didn't find the quote at a quick search.
But again, it doesn't say "neck destroyed" in the crit text. Thinking about it, maybe RM should seek to clarify crit results; then again, good thing the benevolent GM was given so much leeway here to wriggle out of certain death!

Cannot breath: Co mod +10 is base number of rounds breath can be held before passing out, so PC may pass out before 12th round, regardless he dies of suffocation after Co mod +10 rounds. 

Useful to know. I didn't recall this rule (and the "passing out from accumulated stun rounds" didn't apply), but luckily this lapse made no difference in this case.

To repeair: Shatter repair (any other bone repair will stabalize injury only, roll normal revovery).  Cartilage repair (assume throat is damaged from severity of blow and inability to breath).

Yup. In this case, the shatter repair came from a Bursthelas brew another player actually possessed, and the cartilage repair was a spell provided by a thankful 14th level Elf animist liberated from the Orc dungeons by the party. 

Nerve repair: without target is paralyzed and may die even if all other injuries are repaired.  Co mod x3 + Bod Dev ranks +d100 - wound penalty with results under 100 indicating target dies in number of days equal to ranks in body dev (unless treated).

Yeah but the question is: What Nerve damage? This is a "severe" wound, but since no penalties are spelled out the nerve damage rulings don't apply, or did I miss something here?

This is BAD mambajamba wound and will require some serious healing magic/surgical skills to survive.

Indeed. In similar cases in the past, loss of stats (in one case, even potential stats) was GM-ruled as a result of the injury even though the character was "only" in a coma for some time and didn't actually die.

Which brings me back to the original post here:
As I understand the RM rules, the body is a vessel for the soul.

When a body dies, it ceases to function and decays --> stat losses. Prevent with Preservation spell or herbs. Stats can be regained through leveling up, losses to potentials are permanent.

A few rounds after the death of the body, the soul departs unless it is forced to stay with Lifekeeping. Which, I imagine, is a very bad experience for the soul, being caged in a decaying body. But it leaves the possibility open to reanimate the body and thus save the life of the character by bringing him back from near-death.

Once the soul has departed, Lifegiving is required to bring it back. For our Middle-Earth game, this is not an option so I've never really cared for the resurrection rules.

When the soul leaves the (living) body, the body is in a coma and will likely die (someone in coma will not eat or drink and may not even breathe on their own).

That is to say, Preservation, Lifekeeping and Lifegiving are three distinct effects and the former two may both be required simultaneously to keep a slain character from truly dying until he can be treated.

[Cory Magel]

Hello! I wondered if there is a chance to save a person that get this predicament. Say you get hit by a 96 - 99 B heat critical. It says "Flames burns into foe's throat. The damage is frightening. Foe's neck collapses in the flames. He drops and dies in 9 inactive rnds. He smells bad." Could you save this person?
Would it work to just throw a Preservation and a Lifekeeping spell on him? (If you manage to heal the actual damage before the spell duration runs out)

The answer, imo, is pretty simple. You need the spell that will repair the damage before the character dies... which probably means a full on Healer profession (or maybe the Lay Healer).

[markc]

 I sent a PM to a higher up to see who is the official rules guy.
MDC

[providence13]

Our Mystic lost his nose to frostbite and should have been in a month long coma from an encounter with a Drow Vampire. "00" A Cold crit!
Player asked if he could use Adrenal Stabilization (RMFRP) to still be active for a few rnds and then go into a coma..

The entire party was down. I said, sure, but you'd better make your roll. I don't want to kill the party. But it can happen.

[yammahoper]

Yeah but the question is: What Nerve damage? This is a "severe" wound, but since no penalties are spelled out the nerve damage rulings don't apply, or did I miss something here?

I'm thinking with a shattered neck/spine nerve damage is unavoidable.  After all, the spinal colum is at the center of those vertabra that make the spine.  It is not the bleeding nor the crushed wind pipe that is the greatest threat, it is damage to the spinal column, thus failure to repair will probably result in eventual death no matter what other injuries are repaired.

My take on the crit, which states blow to neck, and vertabra are the only bones available.

[pastaav]

3) No malus is mentioned, which means there is no nerve damage. That in turn we interpreted to mean the character's "shattered bone" could not have been the neck or spine; we figured it'd be a skull or collarbone fracture instead. Also, there's no extra organ or tissue damage mentioned. Despite what the initial description would make you think, we're apparently not looking at a crushed neck here.

I understand your reasoning, but myself I would rule that the inactivity part of the critical is exactly about nerve damage and very compatible with a broken neck. Not being able to breath, a broken artery etc is not injuries that would cause inactivity.

So the character has a broken neck, can therefore not move since he is lame. Allowing the character to take herbs is very generous at this point, but since it is player I might go with it.
The internal bleeding is remaining concussion hits/12...the failure to state how much bleeding happen is caused by the mechanics that tie bleeding from artery to concussion hits instead of something more sensible.
The cannot breath part I would view as the character being on the edge of suffocation due to lack of air but that the character can get enough air down in his lungs to not die from this before he bleed to death.

[Cory Magel]

Not getting blood or oxygen (via the blood) to your brain can cause you to pass out very quickly, in seconds not minutes.

[Frabby]

Thanks for the insightful answers. Looks like I let that player get off the hook lightly; but the ruling stands.
 

[yammahoper]

Thanks for the insightful answers. Looks like I let that player get off the hook lightly; but the ruling stands.
 

As is proper Mr. GM sir 

Welcome to the madness of us RM GM's.  All in the name of fun I say.  Your letting the player off lightly is quite minor to some of the light handed dealings I have engaged in lol.

[Defendi]

For all that we have quibbled, your interpretation of it all is just as valid as ours, I'd say.  I'm pretty sure is possible to have a vertebrae as least severely broken without permanent spinal cord damage, and the crit didn't specify, as you pointed out.  I've always pictured the recipient of that crit moving their arms helpless, for some reason. 

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Just to clarify; I would like a ruling on whether lifekeeping is a higher tier of the preservation spell. If you've got the former, do you need the latter?

You need both Preservation and Lifekeeping. Preservation stops the stat loss from rotting, Lifekeeping keeps the soul anchored to the body.

I carefully checked the material at the back of RMSS Spell Law, so you can all deem this an official ruling.

Best wishes,
Nicholas