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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Eladan on February 27, 2021, 08:27:21 PM
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As I'm looking to retool the Conjurer/Summoner for RMU, I feel that magical circles need some rewriting. There are certain elements that I think work well, such as:
- Varying levels of fragility in "drawing" circles, and penalties if the circle is destroyed. If a caster traces it quickly in the sand, that should be riskier than taking the time to paint it on a wood floor or carve it in stone
- Varying levels of effects within and outside the circle. If circles take time to create (vs simply casting which is far faster and easier in RMU), they should have corresponding benefits such as increased intensity in their ranges.
Here is what I think needs addressing:
- The key issue becomes that of time. The new action economy and the improved speed of spell casting makes circles somewhat unwieldy as currently written. Consider that it in RM2 it takes three rounds to cast without penalty (2 to prep and the cast itself). Per Rolemaster Companion II, the default time to create a circle is 1 minute/1'R for circles of power OR 1 minute for a 5' circle of summoning + 1 minute/1'R increase. Also consider that rounds are now 5 seconds vs 10 seconds in RM2.
So what is fair as a new baseline time for drawing circles? If a caster wants to quickly lay down a Circle of Sleep, let's say that it needs to be 2' wide in order for the caster to stand inside it and radiate it outward to hit his foes. Also consider that a circle will be able to hit every being in its range, making it more powerful than a Sleep spell. If the old model took 6 rounds (1 minute) as a baseline, the equivalent in RMU would still be 6 rounds but now 30 seconds. In the case of a summoning circle it is comparable.
- Could a skill decrease this time? Could a successful Composition or Drawing/Painting roll reduce the time it takes to effectively make a circle?
- Some of the protection circles allow the caster to ignore the need for the circle and instead create a target as the center, reducing or eliminating the modifications to the RR. I'm not sure I like that. However, I am considering allowing the bypassing of the need for a circle for the Summoner if he has a component of the target creature being summoned that is then consumed in the casting.
None of this is overly complicated, but I'm curious if there are any thoughts on this as I begin to unravel the mystery of Circles. If anyone has some setting specific experience they have dealt with during gameplay, I think it would great for the discussion.
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So what is fair as a new baseline time for drawing circles? If a caster wants to quickly lay down a Circle of Sleep, let's say that it needs to be 2' wide in order for the caster to stand inside it and radiate it outward to hit his foes. Also consider that a circle will be able to hit every being in its range, making it more powerful than a Sleep spell. If the old model took 6 rounds (1 minute) as a baseline, the equivalent in RMU would still be 6 rounds but now 30 seconds. In the case of a summoning circle it is comparable.
That's probably a good way to think of it: in terms of round rather than seconds or minutes, since that is a bit more direct comparison.
I wouldn't worry too much about a difference between say 1 minute and 2 minutes. Anything longer than a minute means it is virtually impossible to cast in combat; so once you pass that threshold, the exact number of minutes probably isn't as important.
- Could a skill decrease this time? Could a successful Composition or Drawing/Painting roll reduce the time it takes to effectively make a circle?
I think using the Drawing skill is a good one for any skill checks for drawing the circle (e.g. to try to make an unbroken one in sand, or to try to draw over dirty rocks).
I am considering allowing the bypassing of the need for a circle for the Summoner if he has a component of the target creature being summoned that is then consumed in the casting.
That sounds pretty cool. I would just specify how much exactly you need to qualify for this component. I'd try to limit it to the more finite resources, such as the eye of a demon, rather than a hair of a horse.
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For the use of Drawing/Painting and its effect on Circles, you might look at the use of performance skills in relation to the Bard's Song spells (Section 10.1 in beta Spell Law). It may provide some inspiration.
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@Hurin - I agree that the 1+ minute "prep" time makes these spells problematic, I so I am reducing the overall time.
@rdanhenry - That's a great idea. Perhaps the Draw skill can either 1) reduce time to draw the circles OR increase their effectiveness somehow (strengthen them against breaking or increase the RR penalty)?
Here are some basic thoughts on the circles. Some of this is reworking from the rules in RoCo2, some of it is new concepts. I'm not entirely sold on these changes yet so tell me what you think. I admit that I'm a little on the concept as needing retooling but afraid of making them too complicated.
Circles of Summoning (Circles of Power to come later...)
Summoning circles act as a specialized gateway used to transport a creature or being from another location. After the subject is transported into the circle, the circle itself acts a tether, maintaining the link between the creature’s prior location and its current one. Once the duration of the spell ends or the circle is broken in some way, the link is broken and the creature is pulled back to its original location. Additionally, the circle acts as a conduit for the summoner to exert control over the summoned creature.
Creating a summoning circle:
- A circle may be created on any surface through various methods (i.e. traced in sand/dirt, drawn with paint/chalk, or carved into wood/stone). However, the more fragile the drawing, the easier it is to break the circle and dispel the enchantment.
- Every circle has a base 5’ diameter, and may be increased up to 1’R/lvl of the caster. Drawing a circle takes 3 rds for the base, plus 1 rd for every 5’R increase in size. The caster may make a Drawing/Painting skill check to decrease the time required. Upon completing the circle, the spell is activated and the SCR is made.
- If at any point the circle is physically broken, the summons is canceled and the caster must make a RR vs the level of the spell or take 10% of his remaining hits. The glyphs of a circle emit a gentle force similar in intensity to that of small magnets opposing one another, so sand blowing over the inscription would not break a circle in sand or dirt, but footprints would.
- The basic duration of all summoning circles is 10 min/lvl, unless otherwise stated or other conditions override the duration.
Functions of a summoning circle:
- Once the circle is completed, it begins to glow brightly, the spell activates, and the summoned entity instantly appears within the circle.
- To control the creature, the summoner must either maintain concentration, or may choose to step inside the circle to control the entity mentally without concentrating.
- If control is lost, the summoned entity will act according to its nature and the situation (i.e. a manticore in the midst of combat would most likely continue to fight, and then turn on the next most vulnerable target; a faerie would most likely flee or hide; etc).
- The range of control over the summoned creature is 100’/lvl from the circle.
Components:
- A summoner may use physical components of entities to enhance or bypass the powers of a circle. Instead of drawing the circle, a summoner may empower a component to act as the tether. This component will glow as the circle would, but the spell may be cast in a single round. At the end of the spell’s duration the component will be consumed by magical energy and destroyed.
- A summoner may also choose to empower a component after drawing a circle. If so, the caster may control the summoned creature outside the circle without concentrating, and the duration of the summons is doubled.
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Overall, I like it.
A few specific thoughts/questions:
- To control the creature, the summoner must either maintain concentration, or may choose to step inside the circle to control the entity mentally without concentrating.
By 'control the entity mentally' do you mean by a Mastery spell or something like that? I think that would be fine, but am not sure if you are saying that someone can control an entity without concentrating or casting a spell if s/he is in the circle (I think you should always have to either concentrate or cast a control spell).
A summoner may also choose to empower a component after drawing a circle. If so, the caster may control the summoned creature outside the circle without concentrating, and the duration of the summons is doubled.
Again, I do worry a bit about characters controlling creatures with no action cost (concentration or casting a spell), as that could get a bit out of control. In the past, spell lists have sometimes limited the maximum number of creatures/levels/types a controller can control to balance this. So I am hoping that there is some limit to the control characters can exert without action cost.
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I'm pretty sure that the circle creation times were deliberately made too long to be used in combat as a balance mechanism. Be cautious in taking that away.
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Valid points by everyone. The key issue then is still time and now it seems these changes give it back too generously as a resource. Thinking more about it, I agree.
To address Dan's point, you are probably right about time cost as a balancing mechanic. A Summoner using these circles already has utility outside of combat (summon a Giant to help build or destroy a a barricade) but I still think that in order for this profession to have some presence on the battlefield, their speed needs to be increased to keep it inline with the new changes to spellcasting in RMU, which means that some perhaps other resource needs to paid to offset their power. This is partially why I'm considering using the Draw skill as a complimentary mechanic. The caster then has to develop not only lists but a skill to go with those lists, but that skill can potentially make the list more effective (i.e. accelerate the casting process). I see this as similar to the Directed Spells skill and learning Fire Law. Maybe push the time back up to 1 minute but specify how much a success or absolute success can decrease drawing time?
This brings me to Hurin's point, which may have the answer. I was thinking that by the Summoner having to remain immobile within a glowing circle in order to gain Mastery (now Binding in RMU) over the creature, that might offset the action cost. Ultimately I am trying to create mechanics within the "new" circles that don't require yet another spell to make them effective. Otherwise I don't think the profession is really viable. However, maybe my "inside the circle for Mastery" mechanic is too forgiving. I agree that the default mechanic should require concentration in order to control the entity.
Two more points:
- Thoughts on how to use the components or if they just complicate the process? I know they need some more specifics on how they can be obtained (maybe that's another list?) but I kind of like the idea of the Summoner as having to do some monster hunting or pact-building in order to be able to summon specific creature types.
- Completely agree with the idea of one creature controllable at a time. I haven't really explored the multiple circle rules yet but I think that has far too much potential for abuse.
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A Summoner in RMU will not need to rely on base lists in combat, as it is possible to have a selection of Open and Closed lists for that purpose at a reasonable cost.
Casting the spells isn't what takes the time, it is drawing the circles, so if there is time to prepare, circles are useful, though this will generally make the user a better defender than attacker. The whole point of the time cost is to make the spells unusable when suddenly in a crisis.* The time cost is otherwise pretty trivial. I believe I have read of Conjurors using woven carpets with circles to lay down a prepared circle quickly (which seems reasonable, as this is a bulky item requiring preparation [and another skill to develop], is vulnerable to destruction, especially by fire, limits the size of the circle, and requires prior decision on what very small selection of circles to take).
* That is, it is the point from a mechanical viewpoint. From a flavor viewpoint, the need to draw the circles made the Conjuror act more like a historical magician than other casters.
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I should clarify that I’m trying to make it so the Summoner base lists are useable in combat. Granted they will be more cumbersome, but if the idea that if the tanks can protect him for a few rounds, the Summoner can come out swinging. This wasn’t uncommon in RM2, we are preparation was needed, and the spellcaster prepared for three rounds to make sure that his sleep spell was going to hit everybody. I like the new speed of spellcasting in RMU, but picture the Summoner/Conjurer as being able to effectively utilize slower spells for greater effect.
I get what you’re saying regarding the time cost coming from drawing the circle. I’m just generically lumping the time to cast (1rd) and the time to draw (variable) into one category because circles require both.
Carpets are a neat idea... I hadn’t thought about that as a workaround but can definitely see that as useable.
Again, my ultimate goal is to make the Summoner more combat compatible. They will always have a speed disadvantage against other casters, but I’m trying to strike a balance between summoning so fast that it really has no drawbacks vs summoning taking so long that any use in combat is completely wasted because two minutes elapsed and the battle is over.
Depending on the creature/situation, that balance is tough to envision, but here’s an example: In Round 1, the Fighter attacks, the Ranger shoots, the Mage throws a bolt, and the summoner is preparing. By Round 3-4, I like to think that the Summoner can maybe get a wolf on the ground to help the party mix it up. Obviously if the Summoner wants to bring in a lesser drake, that’s going to take a lot more time, so he better be behind a wall of a castle getting that ready because he probably doesn’t have the requisite 10+ rounds it will take to draw a circle that big before either getting killed or interrupted. Hence the concept of him as a “bunker” caster.
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That's a cool way of looking at it Eladan, but if that's the idea, then I would make the summons that rely on a component last less time, and/or be weaker (lower level say) than those summoned by circles.
This would mean the summoner could either take the three rounds to draw a circle in order to have a more powerful or longer lasting summons; or forget the circle to get out a quick but less powerful and shorter lasting summons. That would kind of solve the problem of the summoner being just a bunker caster: give him/her the option of summoning quickly, without a circle, but at the cost of summoning a weaker/less permanent creature.
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You could also split the summoning and circles onto separate lists. The summoning lists could be quicker to cast but shorter durations and require concentration to control (or repel) the creatures. The circle lists instead of actually doing the summoning could enhance those summoning spells e.g. increase the duration, reduce the need for concentration, get bigger creatures or more of them, etc etc.
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Circles and summoning along with the alchemist lists have always been one of my issues with the RM list concept instead of rituals. Lists work great for combat magic and relatively quick magic ideas. Unfortunately they tried to shoehorn all the ritual type magic into lists as well, and that I think is where the system bogs down. I think summoning should probably be broken up into two activities, one similar to the original shadowrun idea where you use ritual magic to summon and bind a creature(elemental/demon/etc) and use the lists to bring a bound creature to work for you.
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Two great ideas here that might help crack this:
I would make the summons that rely on a component last less time, and/or be weaker (lower level say) than those summoned by circles.
and
You could also split the summoning and circles onto separate lists. The summoning lists could be quicker to cast but shorter durations and require concentration to control (or repel) the creatures. The circle lists instead of actually doing the summoning could enhance those summoning spells e.g. increase the duration, reduce the need for concentration, get bigger creatures or more of them
So now 3-4 lists for various types of summoning (Demons/Angels, Animals, Elementals, etc).
- Summoned creatures can appear quickly but require concentration and have a short duration (1rd/lvl or something to that effect).
- Components can be used in conjunction with these spells to extend the duration.
1+ additional list for creating Summoning Circles which give an extended duration and/or can bypass the concentration requirement (this helps balance the lack of action cost by requiring both time and development in another list). This move the Summoner class away from being dependent on circles, but they can still be part of his spell choice with the other Circles of Power lists, and the Summoning Circles list(s) can let him reach his true potential. Aha! We're getting closer!
@Hurin - I like the idea of the summons being less powerful unless augmented by a circle, but that could be problematic in terms of consistent mechanics unless there was some guiding formula. Maybe half the level of the spell, with the circle granting some sort of bonus to the number of levels that can be summoned? Again, I worry this might complicate the whole system a bit when the intention is to streamline it. Going to require some thought.
I'm going to start plotting out the lists this weekend (finishing my latest graduate course has been destroying my RMU planning time) but this is a priority now that the concept of the class is getting a little clearer.
@netbat - I agree completely. Alchemist is next on my hit-list (reimagined as the Artificer/Wright). Mwahaha!
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@Hurin - I like the idea of the summons being less powerful unless augmented by a circle, but that could be problematic in terms of consistent mechanics unless there was some guiding formula. Maybe half the level of the spell, with the circle granting some sort of bonus to the number of levels that can be summoned? Again, I worry this might complicate the whole system a bit when the intention is to streamline it. Going to require some thought.
The simplest way might just be to bake the balance into the specific spell list: i.e. the list that summons creatures with circles might summon a bit higher level creatures (relative to the spell level) than the list that summons creatures with components. That way you can fine tune the balance spell by spell, but still keep the mechanics simple.
I'm going to start plotting out the lists this weekend (finishing my latest graduate course has been destroying my RMU planning time) but this is a priority now that the concept of the class is getting a little clearer.
At least you have your priorities straight!
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The list that summons creatures with circles might summon a bit higher level creatures (relative to the spell level) than the list that summons creatures with components
Actually I was imagining the Summoning Circle list as a more generic list that can work with any of the other summoning lists, so it would probably need to provide a boost in spell levels built into it as I'm currently imagining it.
Right now I think I'll build off the idea that the base summoning spell lists A) limit time and B) require concentration and see what you all think. At least this way there's a base from which I can evaluate any balance issues.
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Continued planning... The last 2 weeks in RL have been a buzzkill: grad classes, kids, trademarks of grown-up life.
I'm looking at separating the summoning lists into various types. I'm not sure if this is the wisest course but this part of the RM2 conversion project has been giving me creative writer's block. Right now I'm thinking:
- Animal Summons - self explanatory; probably scales faster than other lists due to it's relatively mundane nature
- Fantastic Summons - magical creatures ranging from giant eagles to drakes
- Divine Summons - angels, demons, etc
- Planar Summons - elementals, other planar entities. Not sure if this overlaps into the Divine Summons list too much, but I see that as specific to angels/demons/divine agents
- Sentient Summons - fai, giants, and/or non-playable races
- Anything else?
If you have other suggestions for classifications, I'd love to hear them. As I said, I'm not sure if this is too specialized per list; I know that depending on the setting of the campaign, some of them might be inappropriate or even combined. Another concern I have is having enough spells to fill each level, which might necessitate combining the "standard" and circle-based summoning into these lists, rather than having a separate list of for creating circles to augment summoning.
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Going to multiple different summoning lists is fine, though I'm not sure it really adds much firepower to the class, compared to say different types of lists to buff summons and do other things. That is to say, I'm not sure that it really helps that much to be able to summon so many different types of things, since you can really only cast one summoning spell per round, and once you have a summoned creature out, you're probably concentrating on controlling/commanding it.
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You could get more variety if you try to tie some of those to functions. E.g. you can get an animal to fight for you, but you can also get a mount, a scout, a bloodhound. You can summon a demon to fight, but you can also summon it to force it to analyze an item. You could use an elemental for battlefield control, to create elemental barriers, or bypass them.
I might put giant eagles, hippogriffs, and other animal-like fantastic creatures on the animals list, just at higher levels.
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Going to multiple different summoning lists is fine, though I'm not sure it really adds much firepower to the class, compared to say different types of lists to buff summons and do other things.
You're right, and that's a key concern of mine. I suppose lists that can buff the summoned creatures would be a good way of creating more build diversity, but then I need to consider the mechanics of summoning again. If the creature needs to be controlled right away, then buff spells would essentially have to be instantaneous in order for them to be effective.
You could get more variety if you try to tie some of those to functions.
Great suggestion as well, and gives the class additional build diversity. I hadn't even though about your demon/elemental examples... excellent way of looking at it.
This may be the hardest conversion yet. So many different angles to consider with this class since there are so many mechanics in play.
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Cast the buff before the summoning. "Charge" up the summons before you actually do the summoning. The circle can hold the magic while it's waiting.
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Eladan:
I went down this rabbit hole myself. You can read my initial thoughts here: https://www.rolemasterblog.com/spell-law-deconstruction-written-magic/
Some other questions or comments:
1. Where do the creatures come from that are summoned? Are they magical constructs or are they drawn/teleported from nearby?
2. Once a circle is drawn/written can it be re-used repeatedly. For instance, a circle chiseled into a stone floor?
3. Drawing time. Given that a circumference is roughly 6x radius, drawing time is a function of circum AND the medium? Chiseling is slower than painting, painting is slower than drawing in sand etc.
4. Should the medium of the drawing reflect not only its susceptibility to damage but also it's power level? Or should it be reflected in casting success?
5. If a creature is summoned into circle, do they need to return to the circle to be returned from whence they came?
6. The circle needs to be large enough for the specific creature to fit into.