Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Eladan on February 13, 2021, 08:54:11 AM
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In the ongoing project to convert some of the RM2 professions to RMU compatibility, the next profession popping up on the radar is the Conjuror from RoCoII. Before I start falling down this rabbit hole, I'm curious on the collective thinking regarding this profession. Here are some of my initial thoughts regarding this profession:
- Functionality - does anyone have experience with their viability as a profession? By its very nature, the profession requires preparation and forward thinking to play, so I'm curious how play experience has been with them.
- Power Creep - Are the lists and the mechanics of the lists overpowered? What are your thoughts on the radiate out/inward mechanics? The 1/4 hit penalties? Do they need toning down?
- Overlap - The Runemaster seems to crossover into the Conjuror's realm a bit. From a DP cost perspective in RMU, they seem like they would be nearly identical. Could their lists be streamlined and combined into one profession? I think they can.
- Overlap again - Other professions have summoning... Clerics, Druids, even some Essence lists. In theory the Conjuror/Summoner should be "better" at this if those professions are going to retain those skills. Better can mean more diverse summoning types, faster progression in power, etc.
Before I move this profession to the top of the queue, I'm curious what the consensus is in terms of how they could fit in an RMU environment.
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I've never had anyone play a Conjurer, so I haven't actually seen one in action. But after reading through their lists, here are a few thoughts:
--The Demon Mastery list that they get is taken from the Evil Magician list. Those lists are kind of intentionally made strong, so that might be a concern; but demon conjuring is definitely in the wheelhouse of the conjuror, so I would expect it to have a strong demon summoning list.
[Side note: For reasons I don't really understand and strongly disagree with, RMU shifts demon summoning to Evil Cleric, and Undead summoning to Evil Magician. This means that if you are giving the Conjuror these lists, they will be from Channeling rather than Essence -- or you can just shift the Demon summoning lists back to Essence, where they really should be.]
--The conjuring circles that radiate outwards could be a balance concern, and certainly would be a pain to implement as GM, since the penalty the circle imposes depends on the precise distance from the circle (-1/foot). It might be better to simplify that into a couple of zones (say -50 within 50' and -100 between 51 and 100), or just one flat -50 penalty within 100', just to make play easier.
--Some ways in which the summons spells are or might be toned/down or balanced (if they were seen to be too strong) include limiting the duration of the summons (some of the existing spells limit it to 3 rounds); requiring concentration to control the creature (RMU gives concentration even clearer rules); or requiring the use of a skill such as Power Projection to control the creature.
Those are just some initial thoughts. I love this project!
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Oh, and you mention Summoner -- I assume you have taken a look at the Summoner lists from the FRP Channeling Companion?
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@Hurin - I hadn't even thought about the summoner from Channeling Companion... great call there! [drags yet another box up from the basement].
🔸 My take on this caster is that it's the most playable as a "bunker" caster: When he has time to prepare before battle and lay down circles (and/or glyphs if I combine the Runemaster) he is going to be powerful. But that's ok if it comes with the tradeoff of being as flexible as other professions. In battle, yes, he might need to be protected, but if he gets a circle down quickly and summons a demon/angel/creature of some kind that can turn the tide, again the tradeoff is there. I also like the idea that if he loses concentration the creature can run amok... another balance mechanic.
🔸 I agree with the Channeling/Essence swap you mention. Already houseruling that back; I don't like the conceptual change of undead in Essence.
🔸 The range "zone-method" you suggest is excellent. It could even be reduced in range, with higher-level versions having bigger ranges. That could have a balancing effect as well as fill some gaps in the lists if certain spells need to be dropped.
Overall I think the access to the same power level as some of the Evil lists can be justified to a degree since these are bases lists with a specialty in summoning. I keep leaning towards "Summoner" as a title because I think that encapsulates the concepts of both the Conjurer and the Runemaster — summoning power through scripted/runic means. Early phases though so we'll see how that sticks.
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🔸 My take on this caster is that it's the most playable as a "bunker" caster: When he has time to prepare before battle and lay down circles (and/or glyphs if I combine the Runemaster) he is going to be powerful. But that's ok if it comes with the tradeoff of being as flexible as other professions. In battle, yes, he might need to be protected, but if he gets a circle down quickly and summons a demon/angel/creature of some kind that can turn the tide, again the tradeoff is there. I also like the idea that if he loses concentration the creature can run amok... another balance mechanic.
Yes, I agree that the core concept of the class is sound. I think everyone has a basic sense of the class when they hear the name, whether you go with 'Conjuror' or 'Summoner'. (Etymologically, 'Conjuration' has a bit more of a sense of 'pact-making' (con-iurare), especially a secret or conspiratorial pact).
🔸 I agree with the Channeling/Essence swap you mention. Already houseruling that back; I don't like the conceptual change of undead in Essence.
I wonder if it could have been done by mistake. From what I can tell, RM2, RMSS, and RMFRP all had the traditional allotment: summoning demons was the province of Evil Essence, summoning undead the province of Evil Channeling. But there is an error in the RMFRP Essence Companion: the Evil Essence lists are mistakenly labelled 'Evil Channeling'. I wonder if that could have inadvertently caused the switch in RMU?
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Oops, correction: It wasn't the Essence Companion that contained the typo, but rather RMFRP Spell Law: Of Essence. Maybe the confusion came about because the Evil Essence spells are listed after the Sorcerer spells, with the Sorcerer being a hybrid of Essence/Channeling.
Whatever the reason, it appears that the error first appears in RMFRP Spell Law: Of Essence
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I know I'm kind of flogging a dead horse, but the 'Evil Essence is now undead, Channeling now demons' thing kind of still bothers me. I did find the thread I started about 3 years ago, where this was discussed, if anyone is interested. In that thread we learned that although we could try to rationalize the change, no one really knows why it was made:
https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=18391.msg220777#msg220777
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I wonder if it could have been done by mistake.
Quite possibly. Given the sheer amount of data, I wouldn’t be completely surprised if something like that slipped past. It’s rather minor but conceptually I agree should be fixed. Essence seems more likely to open portals to other planes, vs Channeling uniting some sort of spirit to dead flesh.
Part of my concern is the class becoming too summon-centric simply because that’s my leaning. Not sure if I should focus more on the other circle types. Sorry, just trying to get a frame for what people think of when they think of this class, for the purposes of conversion. It doesn’t seem like this is a class that got a ton of love and play so altering the concept might bring it into the fold.
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Spirit Mastery is very setting dependent. If spirits are a big thing in the game, very useful. Otherwise, might never get used.
Animal Mastery feels a little out of place here.
Circles of Power is an interesting mix of traps and group buffs. Some of those buffs seem kind of broken, too. (E.g. +1 St per 1 fail, I've seen RRs failed by 100 or more...) But the idea is sound.
Protective Circles seems pretty classic and useful. The conditions to break the circle and inflict 1/4 of the caster's hits seem a little too easy though.
Have to say, I like the RMSS version a lot better though.
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@Jdale - Interesting... looking over RMSS. What version of Conjurer/Summoner are you referencing? Just the summons lists? Which Companion?
I have several schools of thoughts right now:
1) Conjurer (Summoner variation):
- Edit the existing lists so that they are more diversified in terms of summons.
- Several lists (3 or 4?) for types of summons (divine, fae, animal/creature, etc). Maybe more summoning lists for build diversity.
- Circles of Protection list and Circles of Power list to round him out a bit.
2) Conjurer/Runemaster combo:
- More focus on runes and written magic / less focus on summoning.
- Would give different methods of casting: Runes/glyphs, circles, words of power?
- This would require customizing the Runemaster lists so there's less overlap between spell effects.
I'm not sure which direction I want to take the class. The goal is to bring a more playable version to RMU, so there's lots of room for brainstorming. I agree that the Circles of Power list needs some smoothing in terms of its buffing power. Likewise, the mechanics for breaking circles seem too simplistic and even dangerous... a quarter of a foe's hits? Or yours? Definitely need to theorycraft that a bit.
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Share some of your profession conversions?
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Share some of your profession conversions?
Are you asking if he can share his conversions? He has shared some so far:
Master list of the professions on his list for work: https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=19811.0
Astrologer: https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=20055.msg235883#msg235883
Mystic: https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=20176.0
Thoughts on Shaman: https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=20011.0
Thoughts on Shapechanger: https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=19859.0
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Thanks Hurin for posting those threads to the discussions... been stuck here trying to appear sufficiently romantic on the mother of all non-holidays.
@Pr0x1mus - Here's the direct links to professions "completed" so far:
- Astrologer (Revised) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zT8uikMsR7RvNHHCzt9EtzUVCCUTk98s/view?usp=sharing)
- Mystic (Revised) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sbsIaxoI6u0cEGFW581xJOBszFmvJmTH/view?usp=sharing)
- Shaman (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ztfmgenpKVe7aaF-MSQJW2qiYWxzkMUk/view?usp=sharing)
- Shapechanger (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DvIlyOGSGKWmsOEKo8m4shCmrmkTU3_I/view?usp=sharing)
They are still under development, and some mechanics still need to be hammered out, but they're largely functional.
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I was looking at the Summoner in the RMSS Channeling Companion.
There's also an RMSS Runemage, in the Essence Companion. I didn't compare the RM2 version, but it doesn't feel like it is related conceptually to the Summoner. Very different tones and abilities.
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I think the only overlap between Conjuror/Summoner and Runemaster (RM2 version) is that the Runemaster had one list of 'Circle Mastery', which was related to the Conjuror's summoning circles (it was essentially a list of Protection and Power Circles).
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The RMSS version has a list of Wards which serve a similar purpose, but they can string them together to create barriers rather than necessarily circles.
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Would just like to see a good conversion for RM2 to RMU :)
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I believe the RMSS Runemage is primarily modelled after RM Companion 3’s Magus class without the Spirit Runes list, rather than RMC2’s Runemaster.
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Yeah the more I think about it and shuffle through the books, the more I think that the Conjurer in RoCoII is a bit of a muddled split that isn't really dedicated to either direction, and suffers as a result.
I think the only overlap between Conjuror/Summoner and Runemaster (RM2 version) is that the Runemaster had one list of 'Circle Mastery', which was related to the Conjuror's summoning circles.
The overlap I think is more conceptual than in the pages themselves. At their core, the Conjurer and the Runemaster are both bunker casters who require preparation in exchange for power. So if the design goes that way, I think there's some merit to it. Perhaps the concept goes a step further so that they really have three forms of "script/symbolic" magic: Circles, Glyphs/Runes, and perhaps Words of Power?
The muddled feel also comes from the fact that the Conjurer also has that summoning aspect in the form of Circles of Summoning and Demon Mastery. Ok... but then there is no way to control the the animals summoned. Jdale's praise of the RMSS version is valid because the concept is more focused and has a control mechanic built in to the summoning. But does that take the concept of the class in a new direction?
The solution may be simpler than I'm making it sound: Make a new profession for each concept, but that's slightly outside the scope of my intent with this project. I already have notes for "expansion" professions, but I'd like to hold off from falling down that hole just yet.
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Ok, fair enough. Then I agree there should be a control aspect to the summons (as there is for example with the Evil Essence Demon summoning lists); in fact I see the summoning circles and the controlling of the creatures summoned to be the core aspect of the class. I guess I don't really see the glyphs and words of power as integral to the class -- I don't really read 'Summoner' and think of someone writing glyphs on stone; I see someone drawing a circle and summoning something in it.
I do see some kind of control mechanic already existing in the RM2 Conjuror's summoning circles though. The spells say that animals and monsters are summoned 'to do his bidding' (i.e. the caster's), though Demons and spirits are not. What the Conjuror can do with animals and monsters at least seems a bit better control in some ways than the Evil Essence demon summons, because for the demons, you have to cast a second spell to bind or master the demons. With the Conjurors' animal and monster summons, by contrast, the creatures seem kind of bound already. And then of course the RM2 Conjurer gets his own separate Demon Mastery list to control demons.
Anyhoo, all of that is just to say: I'd personally prefer a Conjuror/Summoner who was more focused on summoning circles -- maybe one for summons, another for control of creatures in the circle, another for warding/protection vs. things outside the circle (very useful for summoners of course); maybe another list to banish summons and extraplanar creatures; maybe another to use the circles as portals (like the RMSS Summoner has), etc. I'd actually be totally fine if they had no glyphs, wards, or words of power at all, since I think that would make for a more unified class concept. But that's just me.
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I agree. My original concept title for this class was the "Caller" (Final Fantasy reference) and I think the idea fills a particular niche that doesn't really exist in RMU and is underrepresented in RM2. I'm glad you seem to have a similar leaning toward the Caller/Summoner interpretation.
I think a key balancing mechanic could be the requirement of a physical component for certain summoning circles. If that's too limiting, maybe a physical sample could be used to even bypass some of the circle mechanics (i.e. if you have sample from a manticore, you don't need to draw the circle, but it consumes the sample; one sample per specimen). Just a thought... I think there's some fun to be had designing this class. My fingers itch already.
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Yes, I like the concept. I also like the Concentration mechanic as a limiting factor. RMU gives very concrete rules for how Concentration works. It also makes for a fun tactical challenge, whether the summoner is a party member or a bad guy: the summoned creature is strong, but it costs the summoner half his activity for the turn, and if you can hit the summoner hard enough, the control breaks. That adds not just balance, but some dramatic tension!
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I think you should be careful not to make it too narrow. A focus is good, but if the character really only does one thing, that doesn't give them a whole lot of utility -- unless you build it in explicitly. Are there creatures, for example, that you would use more for battlefield control rather than attacking/defending? For construction? For some other functions?
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Note: I am horrible with names so the info below might be wrong.
If I remember correctly (IIRC), I think rdanhenry was doing the same thing you are, that is working/was working on the mystic(spellstrike) and summoner (bunker MMO version).
IIRC the first discussion was way back in 2014 (or around there) and then again in 2016.
So you may want to contact him and see what he has done.
I also did a search a while ago for spellstrike and did not have a lot of luck and RMU and Mystic brought up too many pages for me to go through. But you may want to look at them and ask what others are doing.
MDC