Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMC/RM2 => Topic started by: Jengada on October 12, 2020, 03:37:52 PM
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GMs, do you only allow 1 arrow to be enchanted with General * spells? Or do you allow a group of arrows, and if so, how many?
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I would allow either five or ten thinking about mass compared to a normal handheld weapon although I know physics has little place in a fantasy setting.
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I'd probably allow 5 but I've never seen anyone craft them. They don't stack with the bow so they're really only useful when fighting things that require magic to damage them. For those you can just buy some +5 arrows.
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There are various optional rules in Arms Law for whether you combine bonuses, average, or use the better of the two. Of course for hitting magic beings the arrows needs to be magical (unless you rule a magical bow extends its magic onto each fired arrow)
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Yup, I never understood why making the case of one needing to be combined with the other.
We don’t demand the same for hafted weaponry where the wooden handle needs to be enchanted as well as the metal blade/head of a weapon.
I hated it as a GM and even moreso as a player.
If a weapon is magical, add its effect to the hit/crit with whatever full bonus it possesses and stop adding even more math to an already simulationist game.
Arrow or bow, whatever boni are available, give’r, babee. 8)
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There was a good article in the Guild Companion about this that I used.
Also I do not remember where but I thought there was some text about what/how much could be created with the General Alchemist spells.
I can also see the number and or amount of items vary by game worlds and or how common magic items are in a game.
MDC
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There was a good article in the Guild Companion about this that I used.
Link or synopsis, please. :)
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I've been following the conversation, and it seems to have shifted to bow vs. arrow bonuses, which is fine. I do wonder why my player seems to want magic arrows instead of a magic bow, but it was more the spell question that I was interested in. And in rereading my post, I realize I had incorrectly referred to General * spells when a bow or an arrow would be a Weapon * spell.
In the end, for projectile/projector questions, it makes sense to me that one would want a bonus projector most of the time, but when dealing with a target only affected by magic, you want magic projectiles. Because most projectiles are much more breakable than other weapons, it's likely to be rather expensive to make and use them.
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It seems like it would be more efficient to use a one-shot enchantment on an arrow (preferably a batch of arrows) rather than crafting them to be permanently enchanted.
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I've been following the conversation, and it seems to have shifted to bow vs. arrow bonuses, which is fine. I do wonder why my player seems to want magic arrows instead of a magic bow, but it was more the spell question that I was interested in.
That does seem odd. I'd probably discuss it with them as they may not understand how things work. Maybe they're thinking if they have a +20 bowbut fire +5 arrows they only get the +5.
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That does seem odd. I'd probably discuss it with them as they may not understand how things work. Maybe they're thinking if they have a +20 bowbut fire +5 arrows they only get the +5.
I don't think the character knows how this rule mechanic works at all, but maybe. I think she's focusing on the arrow as the part that does damage and may not even realize a bow is an option. Or she's figuring a bow will be much, much more expensive than a few arrows.
It seems like it would be more efficient to use a one-shot enchantment on an arrow (preferably a batch of arrows) rather than crafting them to be permanently enchanted.
This is a very good point. Seems a perfect case for using Weapon Runes from RCI. Hmm, a bow that allows you to cast Weapon Runes on the arrows would be pretty swell...
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I went to the guildcompanion.com then went to search and typed in bows, and a list of articles popped up. I looked at a few and did not see what I thought was there right off but I do not have the time right now to read each on.
Some I think you would find very interesting:
Note: This is from memory and I do not have access to all my old files so some info maybe in another place. In general I find if I go to my old files and look at my filing system stuff becomes clearer.
1) Wyrd Bow (I use the list in place of the rangers list to summon animals as summoning in my game is a long term ritual vs cast a sell and creature instantly appears from some place.
2) Articles on Weapons in general and changes to the RM combat system when using them, includes a lot of extra weapons and things like X sword does an extra point of bleeding damage vs AT 18-19. It gives weapons more flavor vs specific types of armor.
Note: Weapons I liked were the hand and half axe as well as 4 or 5 others (can not remember the others right now) and my players really liked the unique options for weapons.
Note 2: I printed off (saved electronically) the entire weapons article and made one big file and printed work that I used for my game.
How I have used bow rules: synopsis
1) Average bow and arrow bonus but used magic quality of arrows and or magic +'s to determine if it was enough to damage creatures.
2) In the future: I think I am going to do the following the bonus of the bow limits the bonus of the arrow for OB purposes and the magic quality impact on who and what the arrow can damage. The base bonus of the bow limits the max bonus applied by the arrow to 5 more then the bonus of the weapon.
Items in general:
Item Bonus: smith quality + material quality + magic quality. And I do not limit bonus to multiples of 5, in fact I reduce the bonus to keep the numbers small and I keep the material zero point as it is in the book.
Future: I think I am going to shift the zero material up at least one material, ie (I do not remember the zero point right now) if iron is now base material bonus of +0 and low steel is +5 I am going to have iron -5 and low steel is +0. This is in a effort to lower some bonuses in some areas and increase some bonuses in other areas (ie combat styles).
Does that help.
If you have more questions you can post them in the general area or contact me by PM.
MDC
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I remembered what I do for general better now; 1/4 larger item, 1/2 smaller item and 5-20 arrows depending on game.
Note: small item is a bridle, large item a saddle other items take multiple castings.
In general I require the spells to be cast while the items are being created and only special spells create arrows on the spot. IIRC those that create arrows on the spot are not the base alchemist lists as I always got the feeling (and used them in my game) as the profession spends down time to prep for action time and they have an advantage in areas because they do not summon/create instant solutions to problems.
MDC
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I think you would need Weapon * instead of General for arrows.
A + bow would be giving its bonus due to greater accuracy and + arrows would give its bonus due to accuracy and penetrating power. So these bonuses I consider cumulative. As stated above a character would need magic arrows to hit creatures only affected by magic weapons.
Making a +5 magic arrow:
Level 1 Work Iron
Level 3 Work Wood
Level 4 Weapon I
equals 8 weeks crafting time along with a successful fletching skill roll.
One might want to collect them after shooting.
A high level Alchemist should have capacity to create several during this time.
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In the past, I do not remember what is official, I have used General for arrows as it is only the head that is a weapon, the smallest I use for weapon* spells is a dagger/knife weapons.
Other small weapons that I would use general for are darts(tiny/small), blowgun ammunition, sling ammunition, etc
Yes it does take quite a few spells (thanks for breaking out the spells and times) and that is why in the past I have used 5-20 arrows. But also there was a game or two when the spells were modified and the creation time was significantly reduced in which the instant like factor became more of an issue.
MDC
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Another area of issue in the past:
1) Tools that could be duel use:
In this case tools such as those used in farming, logging, ship building, smithing, etc that can also be used in combat were generally seen as using the general spell vs the weapon spell.
a) areas where it is different: weapons such as a war hammer that also had smithing powers, ie it is a war hammer first and a tool second.
b) a lot of farming tools can be used as weapons, such as flail's, sickle's in eastern martial arts as weapons were often restricted.
c) Your Game: IIRC the weapon enchantment was more expensive then the general enchantment so you could say all duel use items have to use the more expensive enchantment.
game effect: if you let players use the cheaper method all the time it may unbalance your game in the long run...but... using the more expensive method for all duel use items means a lot of common use tools are going to be potentially a lot more expensive and thus rare in the game. ie no +10 magic plow +20 to cutting roots.
2) You Could:
You could define where the bonuses go so they do not go other places, ie a +10 general spell says in the text (because you have defined it that way) to only apply to "crafting" checks. But then you might also need to have enchanting spells and or effects to make your object more durable and resist other effects by using another spell thus making the craft item more expensive then a weapon.
Example: You create a smithing hammer, +15 to all smithing rolls, then it needs an heat and cold resisting spell, durability/strength/reliability boosting/resisting and or repairing spell or maybe even a new general enchantment for each type of smithing you want to bonus to apply to (weapon/armor/black smtihing/jewelry/ gem creation (from Middle Earth and or RM2 EC)/etc).
MDC
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I also just remembered that ropes and chains were an issue when the rope mastery spell lists came out, IIRM the name correctly.
I think the list is both in RM2 and RMSS.
MDC
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And I do not limit bonus to multiples of 5, in fact I reduce the bonus to keep the numbers small and I keep the material zero point as it is in the book.
I always thought that was a missed opportunity in Rolemaster: One of the great things about using a percentile system is that it allows more granularity. Yet almost all the bonuses are expressed in multiples of 5 -- perhaps due to the original marketing of RM as a supplement to d20 systems. I think we're well beyond that now, though, so I am happy to give my players +8 swords and +12 armor. It allows you, as GM, to give out more varied rewards.
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Hurin,
Yes, I rarely had skill bonuses that were in multiple's of 5 and we did not round up or down to multiples of 5 to make the math easier.
That is to say unless we were trying to quickly do the math, ie most people find it easy to add multiples of 5 and then you add or subtract the number(s) you need for your actual skill+ roll (+ or -) mods.
Today most if not all of the math can be done on a PC or a phone or even a simple game application.
MDC
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Even in the 80s, everyone playing RM2 had a calculator! In fact, as the GM, I bought ten or so cheap calculators and considered them part of the tools in playing RM2.
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So, my view is that magical bows effect your OB and magical arrows impart effects.
- The bow makes your aim better or your impact harder (effectively more pull weight). This is reflected in OB.
- The arrows will have properties such as different/additional/improved criticals, effects like a gust of wind, be immune to deflections, make a sound as a signal, 'cast' an AOE dispel at the impact point, etc.
I'd require each and every item be created individually (making magical arrows fairly valuable).
An artifact/legendary bow might fire magical arrows that the bow creates or imbues the normal arrows shot from it with, but that'd be a pretty epic item.
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In RMU, the bonuses for bows only extend their range, so for a bonus you need to improve the arrow. Sort of the opposite of what Cory just said. But the underlying issue is that stacking bonuses would give missile weapons a disproportionate boost, and it's more interesting to make the bonuses do different things than to simply cut them in half (which is the same as averaging them).
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Ah, yep, range. Hadn't increased ranges on magic items, but I'd likely put that on the bow itself. Again, think of it as akin to pull weight essentially.
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When I think about it IMHO, the bow is providing mainly the power, the arrow is doing all the other stuff and the point of all of the other issues.
And I use that as my basis and go from there.
MDC
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I really like Cory's distinction about what kinds of enchantments go on the bow, and what kind go on the arrows. That makes it much more worth the time and expense of enchanting a single arrow, if it's more than just the same "+5n" you could have put on a bow and used over, and over. I've got an archer who wants flaming arrows, so I'm considering just suggesting a bow enchanted to cast "wood fires" several times each day, so she can light some arrows on fire.
As an archer, I also like the idea that a +5n bow should get some range boost, because yes, the bow is the source of the power. I don't want to go too far down that realism road, though, because it would suggest that you need bonus arrows (or at least special) with your bonus bow. Stronger bows need stiffer arrows, or the force bends them and makes them fly to the side away from the arrow-rest. I'm far more inclined to say that, when you have a magic bow, the experienced archer knows they need different arrows.
More generally (and off my original topic, obviously), the quality of both the bow and the arrow matter because of the way Rolemaster is built. In a two-roll system, I'd make the bow bonus apply to damage rolls, and the arrow bonus apply to precision/to-hit rolls. But we all know you can't do that in Rolemaster. Maybe another (heretical?) option is to allow the arrow bonus to modify a crit roll, like ambush. That's the best "precision" bonus we have in RM, really.
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- The arrows will have properties such as different/additional/improved criticals, effects like a gust of wind, be immune to deflections, make a sound as a signal, 'cast' an AOE dispel at the impact point, etc.
Thinking about this more and looking through Spell Law (don't have all of my companions with me right now) I'm finding very, very few spells that would work "on impact" or carry to affect a target.In RM2 all of the Essence Dispell [realm] and Un-[realm] spells require concentration, and Quiet, while it can be cast on a moving target (an arrow) only affects a 1' radius around the target. This basically reduces the arrow to a wand, that the archer would use when they nock it.
A few ideas come to mind, then.
* I like the idea I mentioned above about arrow bonuses being able to modify crits. The fact you might miss, wasting the bonus, counters the power of crit-adjustments. You could also say that the bonus is halved to get the range of potential crit adjustment (e.g., +5 arrow can move a crit up or down 3 points, +10 can modify crit by 5, etc.)
* Compared to normally casting a spell at a target some distance away, having to cast-then-hit with the arrow is more restrictive. One could simply say, imbedding a ranged spell in a projectile for single-use on impact can be done with normal "imbed" spells. The only remaining question would be, does the archer need to attune with each arrow to be able to activate the spell? Does the projectile need to be intelligent, to avoid activation time? Does the more restrictive nature of "must hit to activate, one-use only" compensate enough that activation can be automatic?
* These sorts of arrows are not for damaging or impairing enemies - they can be shot into a wall, a curtain, etc. and the effect is "deposited" there
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- The arrows will have properties such as different/additional/improved criticals, effects like a gust of wind, be immune to deflections, make a sound as a signal, 'cast' an AOE dispel at the impact point, etc.
Thinking about this more and looking through Spell Law (don't have all of my companions with me right now) I'm finding very, very few spells that would work "on impact" or carry to affect a target.In RM2 all of the Essence Dispell [realm] and Un-[realm] spells require concentration, and Quiet, while it can be cast on a moving target (an arrow) only affects a 1' radius around the target. This basically reduces the arrow to a wand, that the archer would use when they nock it.
The absolute first thing I'd say is, if you're an RM user and you're going strictly by the published rules, you're in a pretty small minority ;) . They're magic. Make them work how you want. Still, the RMSS Treasure Companion provides the rules if you need them for various effects.
You could embed things like...
RMSS Closed Essence's Dispellling Ways you have:
4. Dispel Essence I — Any active spell from the realm of Essence
that is on the target must make are RR (use the level of that
spell’s caster as the spells level). If the spell fails its RR, it is
dispelled. (with Dispell Mentalism and Dispell Channeling at 5th and 6th level)
Un-[Realm] spells are against a target and lasts for a full day.
17. Unessence — Target has no Essence power points (and thus
can throw no Essence spells) for 24 hours (this includes spells
cast using spell bonus items). This can also be cast against items
which could normally cast spells. Hybrid spell casters who have
Essence as one of their realms only have access to half their
normal power points (again, the other realms at the next two levels).
In Open Channeling's Sounds Way you have the 7th level spell 'Silence I' with a 1min/level duration;
Creates a 1'R area around the target, into and out of which sound cannot travel; if the point is on a mobile object or being, it will move with the object/being.
This would prohibit, or at least provide a penalty, to spells with a verbal component. You cast it on the arrow and shoot them with the arrow. They won't get an RR as a result of the spell being on an object and not them, but they could pull the arrow out (possibly taking some damage/crit as a result).
Close Mentalism you could use these to destroy a wall for example...
10. Cracks Call — Any previous cracks or flaws in material up to 10'x10'x10' section will extend to their limit.
* I like the idea I mentioned above about arrow bonuses being able to modify crits. The fact you might miss, wasting the bonus, counters the power of crit-adjustments. You could also say that the bonus is halved to get the range of potential crit adjustment (e.g., +5 arrow can move a crit up or down 3 points, +10 can modify crit by 5, etc.)
Sounds like you're using RM2, so your options may be more limited if trying to use strictly published material/rules, but you seem to be liking the idea of what I suggest above. Make your own effects up. You could have all kinds of magic arrows with a little creativity.
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- The arrows will have properties such as different/additional/improved criticals, effects like a gust of wind, be immune to deflections, make a sound as a signal, 'cast' an AOE dispel at the impact point, etc.
Thinking about this more and looking through Spell Law (don't have all of my companions with me right now) I'm finding very, very few spells that would work "on impact" or carry to affect a target.In RM2 all of the Essence Dispell [realm] and Un-[realm] spells require concentration, and Quiet, while it can be cast on a moving target (an arrow) only affects a 1' radius around the target. This basically reduces the arrow to a wand, that the archer would use when they nock it.
A few ideas come to mind, then.
* I like the idea I mentioned above about arrow bonuses being able to modify crits. The fact you might miss, wasting the bonus, counters the power of crit-adjustments. You could also say that the bonus is halved to get the range of potential crit adjustment (e.g., +5 arrow can move a crit up or down 3 points, +10 can modify crit by 5, etc.)
* Compared to normally casting a spell at a target some distance away, having to cast-then-hit with the arrow is more restrictive. One could simply say, imbedding a ranged spell in a projectile for single-use on impact can be done with normal "imbed" spells. The only remaining question would be, does the archer need to attune with each arrow to be able to activate the spell? Does the projectile need to be intelligent, to avoid activation time? Does the more restrictive nature of "must hit to activate, one-use only" compensate enough that activation can be automatic?
* These sorts of arrows are not for damaging or impairing enemies - they can be shot into a wall, a curtain, etc. and the effect is "deposited" there
As close to rules as written I suggest using Warding Law from RM2 II. (Runemaster base).
This list specifies that imbedded spells can be triggered when certain conditions are met, in our case arrow impact.
I’ve considered 2 ways of implementing this. (I’ve designed an item using option a).
a) Imbed->Ward Spell->Spell to be triggered
b) Imbed->Ward Spell-> Imbed-> Spell to be triggered
Several wards will all trigger at once on impact and the arrow will look great with the fancy magic runes on it.
However you might want this to be a new spell list that must be researched for arrows instead of the default Warding Law.
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Further from rules as written an arrow enchanted with a demon could behave in a particular way upon impact.
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Normal rules as written, enchanting an item with intelligence is done to avoid attunement rolls for the magic item.
House ruling spell mastery and/or magical ritual for the manufacturing Alchemist you could allow the intelligent magic arrow to cast the imbedded spells one at a time upon impact.