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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMC/RM2 => Topic started by: Malim on September 20, 2020, 04:49:45 AM
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Our last session our lvl 21 warrior ( resists spells as lvl 63 ) was taken "out" by demonic possesion I spell from evil mentalist lvl 5.
He failed his RR vs the lvl 8 caster and was until he can resist again a day after of no use?!
is that really how that spell is intended? The spell can be found on sorcerer base list also as lvl 2!!!!
Can someone maybe clarify how that spell game technical works?
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Seems clear enough. Anyone can fail a RR, just like a lucky critical can kill you. The Evil spells tend to have long durations. You might need to cure it rather than waiting it out.
It's only a type I demon, right? Do your 20th level characters have any means to exorcise or repel demons? Or to dispel mentalism effects?
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We have no dispellers in group. And that makes a lvl 2 spell work like a one shot one kill spell!!!
That is insane!
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Evil casters are nasty. They're supposed to be. Just look at how an evil cleric will stun you compared to a good one.
A 20th level party that can't dispel magic is in trouble in a lot of ways.
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We have no dispellers in group. And that makes a lvl 2 spell work like a one shot one kill spell!!!
That is insane!
Would you find insane to die because of a 'A' critical resulting in a 100 roll? Considering your character resists as a level 63 against a level 8 sorcerer, the former is waaaaaaaaay likelier. For some reasons, fighters who may kill pretty much every thing and anyone with 5% chance of success always find spellcasters to be insanely powerful because of the 0.0001% probability they may do the same… And it's ever truer when, in the case of a RR, the defender rolls his own RR whereas in the case of an attack and critical rolls, the defender has no opportunity to roll anything, thus is at the mercy of the attacker's rolls!
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A lvl 2 caster can pasify anyone with this spell with a small ammount of luck... So dragon vs 10 lvl 2 sorcerers.. :D
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It's not a "small amount of luck." First she has to survive 2 rounds of prep or a 25% chance of spell failure if you use those optional rules. Then she has to roll super high. Then the dragon has to roll super low.
We had an 8th level party get insanely lucky and take down a dragon with word of stunning so it can definitely happen. That's a once in 30 years of gaming occurrence so I'd hardly call it broken. It also spiraled the campaign I to a world War because we found one of the elven rings of power in the hoard. Great fun was had by all!
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The character isn't dead. He gets another RR tomorrow, and given the relative levels, it's nearly certain he'll make it. Can you keep him contained until then?
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A lvl 2 caster can pasify anyone with this spell with a small ammount of luck... So dragon vs 10 lvl 2 sorcerers.. :D
I don't think it was a 'small' amount of luck. I think it was a LOT of bad luck.
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A) Evil lists tend to be more powerful then other lists, but in general if a person fails rolls by large amounts it does not matter how high a level they are very the spell.
Note: A long time ago there was a House Rule that talked about changing they way the base rules worked in saving throws but I do not remember what they were called or where they are now. You might do a search to see if you can find the thread on the ICE Forums or at The Guild Companion.com to see if it was there (if it was not there then it might have ben in the RM Express Additions, but I do not have access to files on a old dead computer so I cannot help there).
But in general after looking at the rule, if I remember correctly it was something I did not see a need for in my game but maybe it would fit yours.
2) In general in my game spells that give effects such as possession or damage need the corresponding spells to remove that effect, so exorcism for possession or the appropriate healing spell for damage, ie Dispel Magic does not work for many spells that cause an effect but are not an ongoing magical effect, especially spells that cause an effect and then the spell part goes away.
In the case of possession spells, then IMHO the spell opens up the target to possession and then the spell (magic) part goes away so Dispel Magic would not work. But you game may be different.
How you rule on this issue could have a huge impact on your game and may require you to classify different types of possession (ie those induced by spell, by magical creature with a spell and by creature with an magic ability or a creature with a non-magic possession ability.
In general (again sorry) level is a good indicator of a lot of things but it is not the end all be all in my game and their are limits to the phrase "But I am 20+ levels higher so it should work this way because my high level makes me special".
If this is a problem for you I would talk to your players and find a rule that works for you and them and test it out to see what changes it has in your game.
MDC
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Our last session our lvl 21 warrior ( resists spells as lvl 63 ) was taken "out" by demonic possesion I spell from evil mentalist lvl 5.
He failed his RR vs the lvl 8 caster and was until he can resist again a day after of no use?!
is that really how that spell is intended? The spell can be found on sorcerer base list also as lvl 2!!!!
Can someone maybe clarify how that spell game technical works?
Interestingly the Sorcerer version of the same name is actually different because it is worded differently.
It allows a RR "every other round" as opposed to the subject spell of a RR once a day, and the demon is simply random rather than the nasty traits spelled out on the level 5 Mind Domination version. So the level 2 Sorcerer version is less potent.
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This type of thing allows a GM alot of options how to play this.
You could nominate one of the type I demons in C&T as the possessing entity.
This could be used to flavour the telltale signs of possession that the character displays and the actions it forces the character to perform.
Also you could rule that a demon who takes possession will take damage proportional to their host.
This ruling would mean the demon would not want to force the character into suicidal or excessively damaging actions.
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Not dead.. well he in the combat he might as well be and isn't there a chance he will attack friends too? So it even more dangerous then if he was dead
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Yep. Sounds pretty interesting.
Since the demon is "random", I don't think it will necessarily side with the caster. Maybe attack the closest target or a random target. Depending on how things look for the caster, this would be a great opportunity for them to make an escape during the ensuing confusion. Since the caster is 13 levels lower, I'm guessing things don't look so great for them.
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An NPC was possessed in the last session. I had them wander out of the fight and start prying small pieces of stone out of the wall to eat. That was simply the first thing that came to mind. That way the player isn't out of the game even though the character is.
My advice is to go crazy with it. Homicidal mania is dull.
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Again... a lvl 2 spell range 100 that has bigger chance to take out a target then a longbow and a E crit!!!
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In my game there are repercussions to casting such spells, I know it is not in the book but in my game I feel their needs to be some balancing factor to demonic possession (even possession in general by good entities) and it is not just 2 or 5 power points and a smile.
Having said that spells failure of about 5% is normal in RM unlike other games and I generally like it that way.
I do understand people coming from other systems can have issues with it but in general I have had good GM's and players and they have not abused this issue.
MDC
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Having said that spells failure of about 5% is normal in RM unlike other games and I generally like it that way.
I do understand people coming from other systems can have issues with it but in general I have had good GM's and players and they have not abused this issue.
D&D always fails a saving throw on a 1. A 1,125th level fighter can be disintegrated by a 13th level wizard.
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I guess I'm still not quite sure if the problem is:
--That a level 63 equivalent character failed a save vs. a level 5 character. I believe the target would have gotten a +73 for trying to resist the spell as a level 63 character? That's a pretty big advantage. But nothing is certain in Rolemaster, and that's the way I like it, personally. And of course there are other spells (Sleep, Confusion, etc.) that are even lower level that could have taken the character out too.
--That the spell took the character out for days. That does seem very powerful; Sleep or Confusion don't last that long. So I can understand that to some extent, though as other posters have said, Evil spells are meant to be more powerful.
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I cannot understand the problem either. The spell requires two exceptional rolls, one great by the bad guy, one bad by the good guy. With attacks it’s the same though the good rolls fall entirely on the attacker.
On the bright side the character isn’t dead. He’ll shake the effect the very next day unless you keep rolling bad. With a great attack you’re dead for good unless there’s a Cleric with life giving around.
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On the bright side the character isn’t dead. He’ll shake the effect the very next day unless you keep rolling bad. With a great attack you’re dead for good unless there’s a Cleric with life giving around.
I'd say at 21st level that's a given, but they also didn't have anyone who can dispel.
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Just wanted to throw a few thoughts on this, given my recent upload of my Book of Pales that covers some "Demonic" issues. First, I think Possession begs a variety of setting questions that RM, as a generic ruleset, does not address. We discussed this in overview here: https://www.rolemasterblog.com/rule-sets-settings-gap-rolemaster-shadow-world/
The overarching question is the disconnect between western thought of "demonic possession" and the actual mechanics of a fantasy world with a non-god pantheon and a vague idea of afterlife and morality. Hmmm.
Well, there are answers, but that requires the ruleset to be adjusted for a specific setting or for you to ask questions on the how and why. Because your questions aren't really about low level spells, RRs or levels--they are questioning how it works in general. Or, maybe I'm just being dense!
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I believe Rasyr proposed an alternate rule for this back in the RMX rule set.
(I also believe this has been discussed in the past a few times back in the RMX and RMU development and design days and such threads could help you if they are not lost in a crash)
I myself do not see a problem here but then again I have never had a GM or player try and bust this spell out every combat like you would tend to see in a video game.
Instead my experience has been that GM's and the rare player that access to the list or spells like this had rules to prevent it being used with as much frequency as a shield spell would be.
To be clear I do not have problems and or issues with a failure rate of 5% for most if not all spells and most if not all rituals.
I can see how that could be abused in some cases depending on how people play the game and a note should be made in this special case or maybe a magic item to help save vs possession if it is a huge problem in a game.
I also have a big problem with the idea that just because you have a lot of ranks your fumble number goes to zero vs just a lower number (like it was in RMU Beta that I looked at and some other proposed combat styles for RM). Most of the people who I have played with also had issues with zero fumble as well as the idea of auto save just because you are high level vs spells. ie they and I do not think everything scales with level 100% and that their are limits to how high and how low things can be modified.
MDC
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I also have a big problem with the idea that just because you have a lot of ranks your fumble number goes to zero vs just a lower number (like it was in RMU Beta that I looked at and some other proposed combat styles for RM). Most of the people who I have played with also had issues with zero fumble as well as the idea of auto save just because you are high level vs spells. ie they and I do not think everything scales with level 100% and that their are limits to how high and how low things can be modified.
Yes, I agree there should always be some chance of failure. I think the RMU beta allowed fumble ranges to be reduced, but didn't it his a minimum floor of 2 or something?
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To the Original Poster:
1) I would look up this topic in the forums to see past discussions, if I remember correctly the above posts are almost exactly in line with what was posted in the past on this issue.
2) If you have a issue with this in your game, make a house rule or provide another mechanism to offset this perceived imperfection in your game. I myself use hero points and other things for these types of cases but I can say as a GM and playing RM since 95 I have never used the demonic possession spells as presented in SL and most GM's I have played against use it sparingly and with other things being required to happen or happen because a person cast the spell.
3) In general cases of instant death are cases I would potentially make a rule to deal with the 5% failure zone but just like I have said in the past this is a feature of RM (I and people I know like about the game and how it is different from other games) and might have a problem playing in a game where it was not there.
So in general you have pick one area or spell in which I might have an issue depending on how the GM used the spell in their game (as well as other instant death spells that might be thrown around like they were everyday, every second abilities vs rare edge cases).
Also in general I rarely use Evil Spell lists and edit other spell lists for spells I or the group has had issues with in the past. Most groups I have been involved with also have had only a few problems creating and or altering rules that have unbalanced the game they play in. But I have seen some groups that have lots of trouble creating house rules and when looking at them seem to create even more unbalance the the rule(s) they replace.
If you need someone to agree with you so you can create a house rule for your game, then I agree that if you have an issue you should find a way to solve that issue.
But in do not see a problem in this area or have used other proposed house rules in this area in RM2 or in RMSS games I have GMed and or played in.
MDC
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Hurin,
I remember some proposed rules that reduced the value to zero, that IIRC correctly were in RMU and I have through out the years when I was a moderator had people send me some stuff to look at and had the same idea presented.
MDC
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Sorry for the interruption, my youngest nephew asked if I had an old keyboard her could have and I thought I knew where my old apple keyboard from the early 90's was...but it was not there.
I downloaded RMU B2 as I was trying to get a couple of groups to play RM and wanted to see if the combat charts were fixed from what I had seen before.
Both groups decided to play something else for various reasons.
MDC
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The minimum fumble in RMU is 1. There is always a chance, but once you have enough ranks, it's a low chance. Same with resistance rolls. If there wasn't a chance, why roll at all? We'd just say "you're immune to spells X levels lower."
And in this particular case, personally I wouldn't even apply fate points. The character is possessed for a day, the rest of the party will need to subdue him and then dispel or exorcise him or take him to a place the demon can't tolerate being or just plain keep him subdued for a day or two. Maybe lore suggests there are materials or circles or prayers that will make it unpleasant for the demon. There's so much story potential there, it's great. Yeah, it's a story no one expected but that's part of the fun of an RPG, the collaboration between the gamemaster and the players and the dice can create outcomes that surprise everyone.
(We haven't had that exact situation in our game, but we did have a couple situations where characters in the party got possessed, and needed to improvise exorcism rituals.)
I don't want to go on a tangent about the combat tables, which are totally unrelated to this thread, but see http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=19913.msg234602#msg234602 (http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=19913.msg234602#msg234602) for a list of how they are being changed for the final release.
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Yeah, it's a story no one expected but that's part of the fun of an RPG, the collaboration between the gamemaster and the players and the dice can create outcomes that surprise everyone.
Bingo.
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Caster was lvl 8 and our warrior was lvl 21 but have a special so he resist spells at x3 his lvl.
So lets take his normal lvl.
He is attacked by a base attack and lets say for mechanics sake that roll gives +/- 0 and he has 0 in resist as he actually have versus mentalism.
Then he has to roll 28 to succeed.
And versus a lvl 5 he would have to roll 19! Still better then an E crit to take a PC out of combat!
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On the brightside, the problem you have is largely solved now in RMU.
A level 63 target would get effectively +110 to his RR versus a level 8 caster. This is because targets now just get a smooth +2/level to their RR. And as an added bonus, you no longer need an RR chart at all.
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If my tone has come off a strong sorry as I have been dealing with some people who have asked for opinions about their games and ignored the many problem areas and focused and the good things I(we) have said and then complain when they have issues in play testing with problem I(we) have not seem to have seen.
IMHO, you have pick the wrong point of failure, the point of failure is how this type of spell is resolved in the standard RM system.
Fix: Change how this type of spell (I would also include here domination, control, some charm type spells) works in the RM system.
From the past:
At this point the discussion has generally dipped into the topic of people who take anti venom and the idea of spell res skills. If you want I can give examples why I have trouble with those examples.
In general:
I do not have any trouble with the way RM spell system works in RM2 and or RMSS but I do have trouble with some spells in that frame work and how they work.
In General RMU:
I do not have enough info about RMU as it has evolved in the past 4 or so years since I have looked at it. But I did have lots of issues about the direction of the game and many of the mechanics when last I saw it.
I did download the latest RMU B2 from the forums as I was recommending 2 groups to check out ICE games but issues arose, website was down, I check to see if the crit charts were fixed (and they were from me looking at one chart) but no SSL on site. So both groups decided to go with a different direction.
I will start another thread about dispel and possession.
MDC
[size=78%]Note: For some reason my PC and probably other software is added [] around things and changing the size for the font, like this [/size]sentence[size=78%]. I fixed the above but may have missed some or did a bad edit.[/size]
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And versus a lvl 5 he would have to roll 19! Still better then an E crit to take a PC out of combat!
Except of course that it's a RR, so you get a lot of possible bonuses to your roll, if only the stat's bonus. Magical items adding RR bonuses also exist by the dozen. Against a critical E? You get nothing at all.
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And versus a lvl 5 he would have to roll 19! Still better then an E crit to take a PC out of combat!
Except of course that it's a RR, so you get a lot of possible bonuses to your roll, if only the stat's bonus. Magical items adding RR bonuses also exist by the dozen. Against a critical E? You get nothing at all.
There are crit negation items available.
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You get to parry the initial attack....
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You only get to parry against a single attack if you are aware of it.
Again, it could be worse. It could have been a Black Channel or Absolution
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I'm still not over this...
But I made a typo.
The Sorcerer spell is lvl 2 and you can make an RR every other round, now we are were its reasonable.
The Evil Mentalist is lvl 5 and you can make an RR once/day.
Am I really alone in thinking that lvl 5 spell is insane ? :D
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This area has been an issue for a long time, if you do a search from Demonic Possession on the ICE Forums you will find it pop up a few times every 5 years or so.
Also there has been some crashes of the ICE Forums and IIRC some posts have been lost so there have probably been more topics then have been lists in the search.
When I did a search it also listed an article on The Guild Companion about possession that you might want to check out.
MDC
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The Sorcerer spell is lvl 2 and you can make an RR every other round, now we are were its reasonable.
The Evil Mentalist is lvl 5 and you can make an RR once/day.
That pretty much sums up the difference between regular spell lists and Evil spell lists. Extremely long durations are common across many of the evil spell lists, including permanent effects. This sort of thing is why it's so important that there is a meaningful cost to using the Evil lists.
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I honestly do not have a problem with it. It only becomes a problem if your GM constantly makes you face it without providing you with tools or opportunities to avoid it.
But you already have those with such a high level resistance. All you need now is luck.
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The Sorcerer spell is lvl 2 and you can make an RR every other round, now we are were its reasonable.
The Evil Mentalist is lvl 5 and you can make an RR once/day.
That pretty much sums up the difference between regular spell lists and Evil spell lists. Extremely long durations are common across many of the evil spell lists, including permanent effects. This sort of thing is why it's so important that there is a meaningful cost to using the Evil lists.
We play in Middle Earth and there definitely is. The powers that be can feel the darkness when used at high levels of power (10th and up). They're also not available to the party except for one character and the truly scary ones will be rare in NPCs. The character that has them gained access though an artifact which contains the soul and mind of a second age evil dude. So far she hasn't balked at his plans because he's been keeping them low key and playing towards her motivations. She's getting leery and will push back eventually. That's when the downsides kick in. :D
I honestly do not have a problem with it. It only becomes a problem if your GM constantly makes you face it without providing you with tools or opportunities to avoid it.
If I were a player I wouldn't have a problem at all as long as it were rare. I'd be kinda excited. "gimme the demon's personality, boss! I got this." :D
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I would have a problem with it if it were on a normal spell list. But I don't have a problem with it because it is on an Evil list, and Evil lists are just plain stronger, by design.
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The Sorcerer spell is lvl 2 and you can make an RR every other round, now we are were its reasonable.
The Evil Mentalist is lvl 5 and you can make an RR once/day.
That pretty much sums up the difference between regular spell lists and Evil spell lists. Extremely long durations are common across many of the evil spell lists, including permanent effects. This sort of thing is why it's so important that there is a meaningful cost to using the Evil lists.
But the cost... well if its an encounter then the NPC doesn't "care" about the cost.. Its an evil person anyway!
I just feel the balance is way of here sadly. So much way of its a game breaker.
We did a example.
A lvl 2 sorcerer vs a lvl 12 archer. at range 50.
Chances that the archer is taken out by the spell is bigger then the other way around.... And that is if the archer doesn't get a minus on his RR.
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IMHO, this is a remnant from Middle Earth type settings in which it is very rare to find/summon/etc demonic entities. The same can be said of necromancy type spells, ie casters summoning and creating undead is very rare vs naturally occurring undead which can be more common.
My advice: Do not use the evil spell lists in your game as they are causing a problem.
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But the cost... well if its an encounter then the NPC doesn't "care" about the cost.. Its an evil person anyway!
If it's an NPC then the GM should be making the judgment call about what the NPC does, why, and how. Did the GM in this case use a severe spell against the party? Sure. Is the GM throwing unbalanced encounters against the party? This is a level 8 NPC going up against a level 21 party. I don't know the context, but that sure doesn't sound problematic to me.
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But the cost... well if its an encounter then the NPC doesn't "care" about the cost.. Its an evil person anyway!
If it's an NPC then the GM should be making the judgment call about what the NPC does, why, and how. Did the GM in this case use a severe spell against the party? Sure. Is the GM throwing unbalanced encounters against the party? This is a level 8 NPC going up against a level 21 party. I don't know the context, but that sure doesn't sound problematic to me.
This here. It depends a lot on the cost. For instance, I think we can agree that Sauron is pretty evil. Using high level evil magic and gaining the attention of powerful foes is something he absolutely cares about. If NPCs are just meat sacks with no motivations than that's more of an issue than the evil lists.
I think the long story short version is "if evil lists are problematic for the game then either remove them or modify them." This should involve a discussion between GMs and players.
In my campaign most evil NPCs, even the spellcasters, aren't members of the "Evil" classes. you can have an evil cleric without have an "Evil Cleric." When the party comes up against someone who is actually tapping into that dark well of power they know the feces is about to hit the oscillating air relocation system. It keeps those foes mysterious and scary. It also imparts a measure of caution because you don't know if the spellcaster you're hunting down can replace your mind with a demon's or not. :D
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@Jdale If we isolate the spell it self without looking at who is casting it. A lvl 5 spell shouldnt be able to take out a foe for that long. I have a hard time finding oter spells with a 24 hour effect like that one. with such severe outcome.
I might be wrong, but as someone wrote earlier, the RR table has a huge "drop" after you become lvl 15.
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It’s a single day. Healing takes longer. I really do not see the problem. Shock bolt is lvl 2 and take kill that’s permanent. Other spells have the same effect - death.
Demonic possession keep you alive at least and you have a chance to track It constantly. Other spells have a duration (charms etc.) and you won’t have the opportunity to get rid of the effect until duration has ended.
I’m sorry, but I see this discussion more as a response from person hit with extrem bad luck than anything constructive
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1) All spells are not created equal
2) In later versions or spell law (RMSS and beyond) I seem to remember a section talking about evil spell lists in general but that also may be in GM Law or other such book. And in the section they leave it up to the GM to make decisions about how they work and describe how in general they are more powerful then the other lists.
Again "power" can be a term that is argued about about what does it mean.
In general in my game:
Evil spell lists that are used have negative impacts in other ways on the person using them. I am not going to expand further on how.
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Other things you could do with 5th level evil spells include permanently lowering a stat by 5, subvert two personality traits for 1 day/5fail, blank out memory of the last 100 minutes, cause the target to panic and flee in every personally dangerous situation forever, or rot someone's tongue out.
At least this one you get another RR the next day. That Panic spell on Mind Disease will make you useless in every combat and even every dangerous situation for the rest of your life.
The evil lists are very powerful.
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Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you, it will.
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Last night's session was going to be a standard "storm the evil temple" night. Instead 2 of the 6 party members surprised the rest by waylaying one of the other characters.
The why: she's wearing a crown which contains the spirit of an ancient evil archmage. She's been using clearly evil spells (necromancy, possession) in fights, but only to ever help the party. The character isn't evil but is pragmatic and doesn't understand the source of the power she's tapped in to. Ever time it comes up she evades the questions. They were super suspicious.
The what: they hit her with a suggestion "let us tie you up." It works, but that does nothing to stop a mentalist from hitting you with a whammy or twelve. Lots of mind control attempts back and forth. Nobody is using anything lethal. The only actual hit point damage was via pain / agony spells.
Eventually she gets tired of being ganged up on. She lets the spirit out "just a little" and it uses higher level spells to try an get them off of her. That doesn't work, though they do finally see the crown which she's kept hidden. This comes complete with black flames dripping from it and flickering shadows in her eyes. It spooks the party and one of the "less cerebral" characters gets the idea she should try to shoot the crown off with an arrow.
She's been trying to explain that she has the entity held in check but that dire doodoo happens if it gets free so they should leave her alone. She points out she's never done anything but help the party hunt down and destroy the cult of Morgoth they're fighting.
The hitting of the fan: Arrow flies at head... She says "fudge it." Bad guy is let free. PC's psyche is trapped in a cage inside her own soul. Party member who shot the arrow is possessed by a Type III demon (save every 10 minutes). Party member who used suggestion is hit with permanent paranoia. Hilarity (at least IMO) ensues.
I gave the player the demon's personality traits. She's kinda slow and didn't really understand what I meant for about ten minutes, thinking she now had the powers of a demon for her normal character. In the end she got it but couldn't figure out how best to roleplay an entity which has been trapped in an eternal void for millenia and is now experiencing sensation for the first time in a loooong time. Since she was already wracked with pain from the agony spells I had it go buck wild mixing sensations. She dropped to the ground and ore up some grass. One hand scratched painful furrows into an arm while she gently tickled the other arm with the grass.
Lady with crown breaks free and pushes the archmage back down. The demon is still three but isn't violent so they distract it with a myriad number of sensations and toss her in a cart to take and find an exorcist. She breaks out of it a few hours later.
The aftermath: Now the PC with the crown has left the group but still needs their help to storm the temple. The archmage has offered her power and revenge in exchange for tearing down the interlopers who has coopted his old fortress. She uses Necromancy to create a ghost and sends it out to be an emissary and attempt to start a dialog.
That was much more interesting than a couple of lines of temple soldiers guarding a couple of priests and some archers. :D
Up until now the crown was basically an intelligent item. Now I get to actually stat up the mental traits and powers for this archmage. I foresee it braking free again and would like to be better prepared. :D
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In the past (really since the AD&D module S1) we have often done something close to this, with often the persons mind being trapped in a gem in the crown/circlet.
Also being able to block or hide magic item abilities brought a need to add some options for this when creating magic items. At times we just looked at different rules for intelligent items and then settled on creating generic options for all items.
You may think that the making magic items abilities harder to detect in only for "bad" things but it can also be quite useful for almost any item to hide its power for various reasons. In D&D you can think of the Elemental Rings of Command (IIRC) in which they function as specific rings and then when the wearer does something the full powers of the ring are unlocked.
IIRC, you are playing in ME and this might be a way to introduce clones or bodies for re-inhabitation mentally and or by soul transfer. The trapped persona has to get within a specific distance of their old lab to transfer their mental energy/soul/mind back into a new physical body.
Also in some fiction the mental presence is not as powerful once it gets back into it new physical body, so it is in essence more powerful in magic item form then physical form for a time. Depending on the mind of the person/thing trapped in the item they may and or may not come after the party right away.
Also if they are weaker for a time this could actually be a long time in terms of game play not long in terms of game world living person time, ie 3-15 years in game time where at times few games last that long.
MDC
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IIRC, you are playing in ME and this might be a way to introduce clones or bodies for re-inhabitation mentally and or by soul transfer. The trapped persona has to get within a specific distance of their old lab to transfer their mental energy/soul/mind back into a new physical body.
MDC
That's the plan. I'm running a heavily modified version of Temple of Elemental Evil using the Spider Cult and their attempt to free Morgoth. The great plague is a symptom of the weakening of the barrier between the void and Arda. There's already a powerful magic item that's a skull. Al-Pharazon, the archmage, plans to use it to rebuild his body and restart his plans of conquest. If he can inhabit it then he'll go dormant for as long as it takes his various healing lists to rebuild him from scratch. He'll go dormant during that time.
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I have enjoyed T1 and Return to the Temple of EE but have only played and GMed T1.
MDC
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I didn't have RttToEE when I started the campaign or I may have used it instead. I'm having to do some major changes in places to remove the "80's whackiness" in ToEE. For instance: werewolves who pretend to be angels.
Maybe I'll do the return in a future campaign with a new party. :)
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Yes there was a lot of things that happened in the 80's in terms of Role Playing Adventures and "needs to be changed to be of use today".
The Ruins of Undermountain was one of the first adventures IMHO that dealt with how you can have "creatures confined to small'ish spaces and thrive" vs some of our old, when you open the door the creature is summoned and then possibly goes away if you close the door.
MDC
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Yes there was a lot of things that happened in the 80's in terms of Role Playing Adventures and "needs to be changed to be of use today".
The Ruins of Undermountain was one of the first adventures IMHO that dealt with how you can have "creatures confined to small'ish spaces and thrive" vs some of our old, when you open the door the creature is summoned and then possibly goes away if you close the door.
MDC
"Creatures only exist in their rooms" is something I'm having to fix. Random encounter tables just don't help with that. But at least some of the interconnected rooms give attention to that. For instance, a priest may come when a guard calls or another guard might do his best not to bother his boss, even if under attack.
I've definitely seen worse. :)
Of course, back in those days I would sometimes toss together a character and use the random dungeon generator in the back of the AD&D DM's Guide to amuse myself on a dull Saturday. :D
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Yes, I have also played "just use the random tables" style of play and having to go back to a specific point and decide to change things so we could move forward.
The above is one of my "My GM is Crazy ideas so what does your GM do?".
Thinking about RTEE, I would say that if you can pick it up cheaply I would pick it up. I do not have any of the other Return modules but if they are of the same quality I might also pick them up.
MDC
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The only other "return to" module I've used is tomb of Horrors. It's as much of a meat grinder as the first one. I ran it in an epic level 3rd edition D&D game.
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We played through that in 3.5. It got kind of silly with the Find The Path spell though. ("The spell enables the subject to sense the correct direction that will eventually lead it to its destination, indicating at appropriate times the exact path to follow or physical actions to take. For example, the spell enables the subject to sense trip wires or the proper word to bypass a glyph of warding.") Ghost Trap broke some things too.
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I guess my players never looked that one up. :)
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LOL, my PC just got around a Guardian that failed its RR vs a low-level Question spell.
“What is the password to bypass you?”
The GM side of me hates that spell, now! :-X