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Systems & Settings => Other Settings => Topic started by: Ginger McMurray on November 30, 2019, 03:39:07 PM
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I'm looking to start a Rolemaster campaign set in Middle Earth and the basic idea of that there is some sort of baddie looking to sow chaos and war. The way they're doing this is through the spread of warring ideologies. [some sort of item] is designed to give the user/carrier/picker-upper knowledge of one of two governmental ideologies:
- fascism (couched as benevolent dictatorship) and
- extreme egalitarian socialism
I'm doing a prequel to teach the rules, during which a group of explorers come across one or more of these items. They fight, then split up and go out into the world around Gondor, spreading farther as time passes. The socialist faction becomes the Cult of the Spider in Minas Ithil ca. 1650.
Now for the question: what sort of bad guy would this fit? Is there a specific entity in Middle Earth lore who liked sowing such discontent? If so, who and where are they usually based?
In the infant stages of the idea I was thinking Shelob as she's a powerful Mentalist and could definitely create the items. The power is there, but the motive doesn't really fit. If the big bad doesn't have the magical oomph needed to create the item on his own, it's possible he bargained with her to have it made.
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In general, Middle Earth works as a campaign world with two types of big baddies: Either Melkor's lot (Melkor himself, leftover servants of him like Sauron, leftover minions of Sauron like the Witch King) or people who find powers that they are not supposed to have and get corrupted by them (like Saruman who, in the books, wasn't a minion of Sauron, but merely an ally with his own agenda).
Personally, I have done the "leftover minion of Melkor" thing already, so I'd probably try the other one - perhaps even set in the late Fourth Age, when people try to find old magic and no elves are left to ask.
As far as ideology of the enemy goes, fascism works much better for the evil boss, because it will make HIM the leader, while with any type of egalitarianism, things can get out of hand quickly, and a big bad leader wouldn't want that. Unless he's genuine about it, in which case he probably doesn't qualifiy as a bad guy.
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It's not so much that the bad guy is trying to spread egalitarianism. Rather, he/she/it is using it as a means of sowing chaos and confusion. For example, if a socialist movement starts up in an otherwise feudal city like Minas Ithil, bad things happen. The government finds itself focused on quelling the ideology politically, militarily, or both. While the focus is elsewhere, the bad guy can conduct his schemes. In this case, using the internal conflict to weaken the power structures enough to let one of his puppets take control.
I see a few possibilities:
- Sowing the seeds of socialism in a monarchy to trigger a revolt.
- Raising a fascist dictator to power under the guise of benevolent dictator. This either gets the puppet ruler into place directly or possibly triggers a revolt.
- Neighboring regions with diametrically opposed ideologies tend to quickly find themselves in direct (military) or indirect (cold war) conflict.
Now imagine that all of the power players in a region are puppets. Take, for example, a socialist uprising in Minas Ithil. If the city steward is a puppet and the uprising is quelled, the queen's power is likely to be given away, at least in part, in order to make the steward's job easier. If the uprising succeeds and the leader of it is a puppet, then our big bad also has his way in.
Because what's at war is ideologies and not necessarily specific people, it doesn't matter if any one puppet dies. Anyone who has been "shown the light" that proves to them that their particular brand of government is best can be molded. Tell someone they're righteous and then prove it to them with victory over their enemies and you can easily make them do whatever you want as long as you couch it in terms that make it looks like it matches their beliefs.
The players' job is to 1) quell chaos locally, 2) realize there's something more than ideologies at play, and 3) stop it at the source.
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It's not so much that the bad guy is trying to spread egalitarianism.
But with, say, a republican ideology to undermine Gondor's monarchy, he might end up with a Republic Of Gondor that fights him even more fiercely, while with "away with born kings, let leaders be the strong!" he can undermine the monarchy just as well, and directly harvest the dissent by becoming that new strong leader. It's just a lot more effective for his goals.
Then again, it's your game after all. If you decide it won't backfire, then it won't. :)
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Let's assume it won't unless the players find a way to make that happen. :)
Who are the canonical evil folks who fight with whispers and strings running around in the middle third age? Perhaps Rên the Unclean or Adûnabêth. Both have powers, at least in MERP, which would aid in spreading such things.
Of course, the Witch King would also work, but I'm thinking a 60th level foe might be a wee bit too much for a climactic battle. :D
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In the third age? Saruman, obviously. Sauron's minions try this a lot, too. So maybe some mid-level mage gets sent to the West to do this on Sauron's behalf?
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You might want to read Andy Warner's adventures (https://www.seekingsolis.co.uk/MERP_resources/MERP_Adventures/snow_and_subterfuge.htm) which could give you a starter for what you want. I swapped the spymaster's location but essentially he's running around sowing dissension in the ranks of the Arthedain. My first campaign had a similar role using the Dark Mage of Rhuadur.
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Nice! And a great site to start pilfering, umm... borrowing from. :)
Dark Mage of Rhudaur is definitely on my road map. Or at least some flavor of it. No pre-written adventure survives contact with this GM. :)
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No pre-written adventure survives contact with this GM. :)
That could be your tag line :)
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No pre-written adventure survives contact with this GM. :)
That could be your tag line :)
And now it is.
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Back when I was going to run a campaign using the Decipher system, I set it in the 4th age (about 40-50 years post War of the Ring) and the big bad was going to be one of the wizard's that went east. (If I remember correctly, two went off to the east.) The Istari was coming back after conquering some nations over there and coming back to conquer the nations of the west. Your fascism theme could still work there quite well.
Looking at it, it seems as though you could have a clash between the two ideals you mention in the OP. You see, the hobbits, having played a big part in the defeat of Sauron and the saving of Gondor inadvertently begin to affect the humans and their idea of 'nationality' and governance. With a push to reestablish Arnor, the people there look to the hobbits and use them and their ways as a template. This means you could also get a bit of a conflict between them and the leaders that Gondor send up (at least those that haven't gone over to the hobbit ways) as well as between them and the forces of the returning wizard.
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- extreme egalitarian socialism
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I don't think you need the 'egalitarian' before 'socialism'. Socialism is by its nature egalitarian. It can of course be corrupted to serve the interests of the few instead of the many (e.g. Animal Farm's pigs becoming 'more equal than others'), and Marxists and Leninist surely have a lot of innocent blood on their hands. But the idea behind socialism is to create more equality, and that is essentially egalitarianism.
I also don't think socialists work very well for Bad Guys in Tolkien's world. Tolkien identified excessive covetousness for material goods as a flaw, whether because it made some races (such as Dwarves and even some elves of Feanor's kindred) or creatures (such as Gollum) more susceptible to evil, or because covetousness was evil itself. Egalitarianism is the opposite of that. What would radical egalitarians do if they got into power? Make the laws treat everyone equally? End serfdom and slavery? Institute universal health care?
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[...]Institute universal health care?
Evil is in the eye of the beholder. :D
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What would radical egalitarians do if they got into power? Make the laws treat everyone equally?
100% extreme equal treatment would mean that everyone has the exact same amount of money regardless of what work they do. This wouldn't go over well with most people
Institute universal health care?
That sounds great! Then again, you have a world where the most efective healers do it by taking the wounds onto themselves. I'm not sure most Healers would be excited about a government ordering them to accept every bleeding wound and shattered bone they see.
Also, the goal of Mr. Evil isn't really "create a socialist society." It's "sow chaos by putting fascism and socialism in direct (preferably violent) conflict everywhere and profit on the chaos."
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That sounds great! Then again, you have a world where the most efective healers do it by taking the wounds onto themselves. [...]
Canonically, the Gondorian houses of healing are open to anyone in Tolkien's world... so they already have universal healthcare, though not of the RoleMaster healing magic type (more like slow lay healers, if there is any resemblance at all).
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100% extreme equal treatment would mean that everyone has the exact same amount of money regardless of what work they do. This wouldn't go over well with most people.
It seemed to work alright with Jesus, the Franciscans, and Starfleet, but you might be right that it isn't for everyone.
Also, the goal of Mr. Evil isn't really "create a socialist society." It's "sow chaos by putting fascism and socialism in direct (preferably violent) conflict everywhere and profit on the chaos."
Then that's fine. But that's less about socialism than about manipulating others to sow chaos. Your big bad leader could be a socialist or a non-socialist, and it wouldn't make much difference.
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Also, the goal of Mr. Evil isn't really "create a socialist society." It's "sow chaos by putting fascism and socialism in direct (preferably violent) conflict everywhere and profit on the chaos."
Then that's fine. But that's less about socialism than about manipulating others to sow chaos. Your big bad leader could be a socialist or a non-socialist, and it wouldn't make much difference.
Exactly, hence "sow chaos and war" mentioned in the OP.
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Exactly, hence "sow chaos and war" mentioned in the OP.
Ok, I see what you're saying then.
The sowing of chaos and war was the weapon of choice of 'Melkor's lot' (as Thot put it), especially Sauron, and his lieutenants such as the Witch King. As you note, one of the Nazgul might be a good choice, but if they are too powerful, then sub-lieutenants might work. Have you taken a look at the Lords of Middle Earth books? Volume II, on the Mannish races, has full RM stats for the Nazgul and various other minions.
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The sowing of chaos and war was the weapon of choice of 'Melkor's lot' (as Thot put it), especially Sauron, and his lieutenants such as the Witch King. As you note, one of the Nazgul might be a good choice, but if they are too powerful, then sub-lieutenants might work. Have you taken a look at the Lords of Middle Earth books? Volume II, on the Mannish races, has full RM stats for the Nazgul and various other minions.
Yeah, I'm currently leaning towards Ren the Unclean.
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I think you will find the real big bad is Middle Earth Enterprises.
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I think you will find the real big bad is Middle Earth Enterprises.
Nah, I'm cool with them. I've got all of the RPG stuff I need from them already, and I got to watch the movies. :)
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I think you will find the real big bad is Middle Earth Enterprises.
Bazing! Nice one.
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Yeah, I'm currently leaning towards Ren the Unclean.
Another option would be The Mouth of Sauron from the Gorgoroth module. Actually, that one has a handful of others who might have survived into the Fourth Age, or be present in Third Age 1640.
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If you are dealing with humans, you don't have to do much to create conflict. Trust me, I've held elected office for 12 years, and people will find something to complain about.
When you have stratified society, as in Middle Earth, the people on the bottom will eventually realize that people born into wealth and power are no better than those born into poverty, especially in times of peace when the nobility grow complacent and comfortable in their positions.
Nobles vie for wealth and power and those not capable of generating wealth will seek alternatives to earning wealth and power through conventional means; they will look at intrigue and political maneuvering. Factions will appear and eventually a leader will emerge.
One way for an incompetent noble to gain power and influence is through war. Enemies and threats can be invented as even fair market competition could be painted as a threat.
There is always somebody who believes that could do a better job if they had sufficient power. Things get even more interesting when more than one ambitious person appears to compete for the throne.
When I play in a campaign, I always aim to be king or emperor.
Government is inherently corrupt. Government functionaries constantly seek ways to expand their power and influence, even create crisis to exploit. Given time, all governments become self-serving.
The Roman Empire expanded its borders and conquered provinces in order to provide free bread to the citizens of Rome. Rome eventually collapsed after Romans stopped serving in the Legions so they had to enlist foreign soldiers and commanders.
Corruption and incompetence prompted the government to coin debased currency to the point that Rome would not accept their own coins to pay taxes.
No, you don't have to go very far to find enemies.