Author Topic: Survival Instinct  (Read 7959 times)

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Offline Arioch

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Survival Instinct
« on: October 13, 2009, 03:59:03 AM »
Why monsters can develop this skill, while PCs can't?
I mean, monsters have access to all PC's options (plus special powers): they can wear armor (or have natural hide, which is even better), can develop combat skills just like PCs (and they don't have to worry about DPs), etc... On the top of this, thanks to Survival Instinct, their DB increases with their level. Why?
Note that I'm not saying that they shouldn't, I'm just trying to understand the reasons of this choice.
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Offline masque1223

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2009, 06:45:45 AM »
This may be just me, but as I see it, any talent described in one of the books is negotiable, and therefore potentially available to a PC, as long as a player can make a compelling case for it.  Argue with your GM.  If I was your GM and you could convince me that your character has a justifiable reason for having the talent, you could have it.

Of course, as an addendum to the previous comment, I just searched through Monsters: A Field Guide, the HARP corebook, Martial Law, and while I found many instances of Survival Instinct as a Talent for creatures, I didn't actually see a description of what the Talent entails.  Granted, I was just doing Ctrl+F, but if there is no description of the Talent (please point me to where it is, someone), that would definitely make it harder to argue for allowing a PC use of it.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2009, 06:58:35 AM »
Argue with your GM. 

I'm the GM...  ;D
And no, none of my players ever asked me if they could develop survival instinct, I'm just wondering what's the reason behind this choice.

Of course, as an addendum to the previous comment, I just searched through Monsters: A Field Guide, the HARP corebook, Martial Law, and while I found many instances of Survival Instinct as a Talent for creatures, I didn't actually see a description of what the Talent entails.  Granted, I was just doing Ctrl+F, but if there is no description of the Talent (please point me to where it is, someone), that would definitely make it harder to argue for allowing a PC use of it.

It's not a talent, it's a special monster skill IIRC, you can find the description in the monsters chapter of the core rulesbook.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline munchy

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2009, 07:53:03 AM »
My guess would be that it is there to make up for PCs wearing magical armour 'n stuff. Thus animals and monsters need something in game terms to make up for that disadvantage on their side.

On the other hand it could stand for a life more influenced by instincts than thought, as with humans and their ilk.
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2009, 08:06:10 AM »
Several reasons --

PCs wearing armor (of any type) was one of the reasons. Notice that monsters who can wear armor do not have this ability (usually).

There is the issue of higher level monsters being more compentent in surviving than lower level ones, and the Survival Instinct is also partly based on the senses of the monsters as well.

Likely a couple of reasons that I have forgotten at this point as well...  :D

Offline Arioch

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 08:46:44 AM »
PCs wearing armor (of any type) was one of the reasons. Notice that monsters who can wear armor do not have this ability (usually).

Yes, armor wearing monsters with survival instinct seems quite rare (and powerful  ;D). So you'd suggest to limit survival instinct to unarmored monsters only, save special cases?

There is the issue of higher level monsters being more compentent in surviving than lower level ones, and the Survival Instinct is also partly based on the senses of the monsters as well.

The skill fits "lone" high level monsters very well, imho, giving them an extra edge they need to be tactically engaging for a group of enemies like a party of PCs.

My guess would be that it is there to make up for PCs wearing magical armour 'n stuff. Thus animals and monsters need something in game terms to make up for that disadvantage on their side.

Hmmm, so in a low-magic game instead of giving magical weapons/armors as a reward, you could let the PCs develop 1 survival instinct rank per level...
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2009, 11:10:32 AM »
Survival Instinct is not explained, only the rules impact is listed.

It is not limited to high level monsters - nearly every non-humanoid creature in Monsters has it, and many in the HARP book do also. 

For low level creatures it seems to capture the idea that if they did not have this "instinctive" defense mechanism telling them to run away (and darting, etc.) that they'd be killed off by the big bad creatures way too often.  Of course, it might just be better to apply the Talent - Instinctive Defense and give them a +20 to DB or maybe create Minor, Major and Greater for Instinctive Defense. +10/+20/+30

For most of the others it just seems to be a way to make them more difficult to fight. Fire Dragons only get +60 for their Greater Tough Hide. I'm not a dragon expert, but I always thought Dragon scales should be better than any armor - but Plate Armor is also +60.  Giant Ants have Tough Hide +60, but I've never considered a Giant Ant's shell to be as strong as Dragon scales. 

You should be able to add additional armor levels above Greater Tough Hide, use tiered versions of Instinctive Defense and apply the benefits of the various stat bonuses and use parrying as a creature to generate similar DB without going with a DB patch.

Of course this is all my own opinions, and my preference is to start with an even playing field and build up creatures, monsters, animals, NPCs, or PCs all using balanced bases and I don't like things which say "Not available to PCs". YMMV
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2009, 12:22:38 PM »
Why monsters can develop this skill, while PCs can't?

You took the words right out of my mouth. Personally I don't like it. For the vast majority of the monsters it is really used to replicate superior armor/toughness not some innate ability to avoid danger. For some reason the developers didn't want to give any armor more than a +60 bonus. (For example, Dragons, have the +60 armor, then whole buttie-loads of "Survival Instinct" to give them a ridiculously high DB. I say, just allow the larger, thick-skinned/armored monsters have larger armor bonuses than can be had by "people" wearing armor.)

To this I say....humbug! I can reason in my head the ability of a huge, scaled monster to develop a natural toughness that makes it harder to hurt than a "person" in plate armor. I cannot do the same with a trained, mental ability to instinctively understand how to best protect themselves in dangerous situations. Any and every being that routinely encounters hazardous would learn the same ability, or die.

That AND put in the Combat category the Survival Instinct skill (or, make it outside any skill category so that it always costs 4 DPs). Personally, I have been looking at using the Chi Defense skill as a template only instead of the flat +10, their normally determined skill bonus is added directly to their DB, with the -20 to all other actions while using Chi Defense. Or, use the modifier as the bonus on a skill check on the bonus column to determine the actual DB bonus granted.

Or you could just say that every so many levels (whatever you, as GM, decides, I suggest every 5th level, i.e. 5th, 10th, 15th, etc.) you can repurchase the Instinctive Defense talent.

I know that ICE has the tendency to instinctively go with the grittiest, least PC beneficial, method but I suggest we all remember the name of the game HIGH Adventure Role-Playing.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

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Offline Arioch

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2009, 01:07:00 PM »
Survival Instinct is not explained, only the rules impact is listed.

Tell the truth, there is a little paragraph about it:

Quote from: HARP
Survival Instinct – This ability grants the creature a bonus to its DB. Using the same progression rate as normal skills, the monster gains a bonus equivalent to 1 rank for each level.

To tell the truth, I don't mind having special rules/abilities used only for monsters, as long as they make building monsters easier/faster.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2009, 01:12:20 PM »
That was the rules impact I was referring to... Maybe "listed" was not a good word, perhaps it should have been "included".  My apologies.   ;D
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Offline jasonbrisbane

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2009, 10:27:09 PM »
I always limit Survival Instinct to animal-intellect monsters only...

Undead dont get it (AFAI Remember)

Thats my reasoning and I also apply Rasyr's rule too - no Armored animals get survival instinct, but the Animal instinct rule applies first...

Its a matter of preference for GM's when creating monsters, but I created that rule...

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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2009, 10:51:30 PM »
Sorry, but Undead list it as well.... In the core book it's there, and in Monsters: AFG - It's there -  everything from Zombies to Vampires to Skeletal Lords... They've all got it.

BTW - Interesting that you say armored individuals don't get it. I say that because creatures like wraiths have shield and armor + Survival Instinct.... Wights do too...  Vampires and Spectre don't wear armor, but the little Spawn creatures - they do!  Skeleton Lords do wear armor....

The Nasuai, kind of former arch demons,  again - armor + survival + tough hide.... Armor and Tough Hide together - not a bad combo. Not sure how you can do that...

Not sure about werewolves..... In Core they have Surv Inst, but in Monsters they don't.
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Offline Sazen

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2009, 11:52:01 PM »
Sorry, but Undead list it as well.... In the core book it's there, and in Monsters: AFG - It's there -  everything from Zombies to Vampires to Skeletal Lords... They've all got it.

That raises the question of what do you do with the character wo turns himself into an undead in-game?

Does he get to gain survival instinct or is he weaker then all the other undead?

Offline masque1223

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2009, 12:06:06 AM »
That raises the question of what do you do with the character wo turns himself into an undead in-game?
You shoot him in the head.  Don't forget to double-tap.

Offline jasonbrisbane

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2009, 12:18:02 AM »
That raises the question of what do you do with the character wo turns himself into an undead in-game?
You shoot him in the head.  Don't forget to double-tap.

Oh Man! ROFLMAO!!!
You get a Laugh point!

About the others?
I stand corrected I dont have any books ATM.

Mindless undead I understand. The others are the exception rather than a rule....

Otherwise if your GM, remove it and give the monster shields, magical or Material bonus Masterwork armour, etc for the extra added bonuses....

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Offline Arioch

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2009, 02:44:20 AM »
That raises the question of what do you do with the character wo turns himself into an undead in-game?

Does he get to gain survival instinct or is he weaker then all the other undead?

He gets the appropriate undead template, which gives him Survival Instinct (just before being shot in the head  ;D).

Oh, and this makes him a NPC. This is HARP, not WoD.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2009, 02:49:34 AM »
BTW - Interesting that you say armored individuals don't get it. I say that because creatures like wraiths have shield and armor + Survival Instinct.... Wights do too...  Vampires and Spectre don't wear armor, but the little Spawn creatures - they do!  Skeleton Lords do wear armor....

This seems to fit the "solo"/"boss" monster case: high level demons and undead, or things like dragons need extra protection to reflect their toughness and make it possible for them to fight alone against a whole party of individuals.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2009, 10:01:38 AM »
What about the adventurer who gets ambushed by a pack of kobolds? Does he get "extra protection"?
What is it a reflection of? 

For animals I fully understand the idea of instinctively paranoid.... Give them Instinctive Defense just like the PCs get.

For Dragons, give them stronger armor DB and enhance that quickness bonus if it makes sense.   Is it that it is harder to hit the dragon or harder to hurt them... If it's harder to hit increase the quickness. If it is harder to hurt increase the DB from their scales.

For Undead, increase their Hits by giving them Toughness and for those which do not use magic - eliminate their PP and increase their base Endurance.

Yes, these can all be house ruled logically - but the questions are:
a) If we can easily use the pre-existing rules to house rule around these, why was this ability created? It seems to be a catch-all band-aid to increase DBs rather than using the "tools" of the system to do it properly.
b) If this is a valid ability then why isn't it valid for PCs to use?
c) What is this supposed to represent?
 - Under Undead it reads:
Quote
Undead have an innate veracity and agility that they use to avoid being hurt. This manifests as a survival instinct. Many Undead have this ability.
- Demons reads:
Quote
All Demons gain a bonus to their DB. Using the normal skill progression rate, Demons gains a bonus to its DB equivalent to having 1 rank for each level.

I don't understand veracity making something harder to hit...
Agility makes sense, but agility and undead rarely go in the same sentence. Most undead (at least the low level ones) are portrayed as mindless automatons that are so scary because despite anything you do to them, they keep coming.

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2009, 10:45:51 AM »
The kobolds would get flank mods as well as surprise mods (if they apply) - plus this bonus could be negated for surprise if you think it appropriate.

It is a reflection of their greater training and experience. (As it pertains to "people.")

Yeah, but with animals I think it might be better to give them awareness bonuses so it is harder to sneak up on them. Thusly forewarned, they bolt and are gone in a flash.

Undead could do with a few more hits, but the big bonus (which is why they don't need the survival instinct ability) is that they do not feel pain so no stuns or other mods. They truly go go go until they drop.

a) Agreed. It was an easy way to give the tougher (i.e., more powerful, worth more xp) monsters a higher DB to reflect their power level - no other reason.
b) Agreed. It should be: refer to previous post for suggestions.
c) Refer to a.

Yeah, I am not sure how being dedicated to truthfullness helps here....  :D Perhaps they meant ferocity?
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2009, 02:59:35 PM »
I don't understand veracity making something harder to hit...

Remember that in HARP a higher DB doesn't mean only harder to hit, it could also mean harder to damage.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.