Topic: How do you use the 'choke' spell?

[Dark Schneider]

My first post this year

In essence companion we have an open list named 'air amstery', in lvl 7 we have a spell named 'choke', this spell consumes 10% target's HP per round of concentration, and I'd like to point something:

- IMO the HP's consumed are not real HPs, are virtual HPs, as are not wounds and the HP reduction is based on choking, if the spell ends before target fall unconscious, target recovers them after some rounds of breathing. So, target never lose really those HPs, we can use them (target HPs remaining) as a round counter until unconsciousness.

- All targets fall unconscious after the same time, whatever its CO or other points, as is magic, we can suppose the spell takes off the air from target equally.

- And now a question: should this spell be able to continue once target is unconscious?, or in other words, should this spell be able to kill the target?. What do you think?. The spell is lvl 7, allowing that low level to kill is well?.

- In any case, it looks like a powerfull spell, even not allowing it to kill (the more usual IMO), see that this spell can take down a powerfull creature, like a 'great giant', with many HPs, critical reduction, etc., that doesn't care to this spell, and once unconscious, the group's arms users can make a slaughter with the fallen body.

The magician 'wind ways' really looks like garbage compared to this 'air mastery', as you have other spells like 'fly' included. Did you see rare to invert them?, so the magician one is the 'air mastery', and the open essence one is the 'wind ways'?, as usually the base list are more powerfull, and the 'air mastery' has effects (like fly) that usually are restricted to semi-spell users but, as the list is 'open', this is not the case.

Another solution (much better), is exchanging that 'air mastery' with another closed list in the same book, as all other 'elemental lists' are closed, so why not this one?.
I'd exchange it with the 'Matter Shaping' or the 'Mechanism's Way', as they have effects that in any case there is no need to restrict them to semi-spell users.

[markc]

 I think dealing with "hits" instead of other factors was done to try and keep it simple.

 How I might change the spell is figure out the opponents time to hold breath. Have a contested RR roll every round with the target needing to make 2 consecutive RR rolls to brush off the spell. [Or maybe 2 consecutive rolls if the first roll fails.] If the target fails then the caster gets to subtract his level+10 seconds from the targets hold breath score. If the target goes unc. then the caster can continue concentrating on the spell to try and kill the target. If the caster tries this then the target get to roll a RR roll every round to break the spell. If the target makes an RR roll then they continues to lay unc. for the required amount of time.
 IMO the time for complete death should be something like 4-5 min modified by the targets Con. But this early nothing comes to mind.

MDC

[Cloven-Fruit-Games]

My question becomes can you use it on non-living things? Choke a pipe?
Thus causing any flow to stop at that point and it to backup or cause a pressure build up.
Or even choke something other then the neck (blood flow restriction, backup bowels, whatever the PC might come up with).

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

A couple of things to remember about this spell (and it is 8th level not 7 th).

1) It requires a RR to work at all.
2) Range is only 100'
3) Spell does NOT hinder target in any manner
4) Spell is Concentration only

To me, this is not a good combination of factors for a spell that will take a minimum of 10 rounds to knock out a healthy, uninjured target.

A single shot to the caster, causing any sort of crit, and that concentration is likely gone. Plus, Concentration requires 50% activity, which makes it difficult to perform other actions at the same time (such as defending oneself).

I am going to presume that by Wind Ways, you mean Wind Law, one of the Magician Base Lists. Don't forget that Pure spell users get to select 4 additional lists as Base Lists, thus Air Mastery is a good possibility for that.  

[yammahoper]

There was a choke psion in old Space Master.  It caused an accumlative -10% per round until -100 was reached, then target passed out.  If held until -200% was reached, target died.

The higher level version put target at -100% right away, with death following after 10 rounds.  I believe both psions were concentration, but don't quote me on that.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I believe both psions were concentration, but don't quote me on that.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

*snicker*

[yammahoper]

I believe both psions were concentration, but don't quote me on that.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

*snicker*

Happy new year to you too...and your first laugh point of 09.

[RandalThor]

How do you use the 'choke' spell?

Never watch Star Wars? 

[Dark Schneider]

How do you use the 'choke' spell?

Never watch Star Wars? 

I think that is the idea, but in this case target is not hindered (darkside is more powerfull ).

Then I see that is a spell to be used if caster is protected by another character (as can take 10 rounds while concentrating), and against individual target. Maybe that is balanced, as I have not the spell I don't know, that is the problem, I think few people has that spell.

I am going to presume that by Wind Ways, you mean Wind Law

Yes, I didn't remember the english name. In any case I'd change the 'air mastery' to closed list as the 'fly' effect is more restricted, exhanging with 'Mechanism's Way' the class, as there are semi-spell users that manage mechanisms I think (I don't remember well).

[Temujin]

10 rounds before reducing a single target unconscious, while you have to concentrate on the spell, and the target gets a saving throw anyway, doesn't sound too deadly to me.  In all likelihood, you'll spend 2-3 rounds concentrating then will have to drop the spell to do something else (like defend yourself).

And btw, don't underestimate Wind Law.  It rocks.  Area-effect no-save criticals?

[Dark Schneider]

And btw, don't underestimate Wind Law.  It rocks.  Area-effect no-save criticals?

Yes, but 'clouds', that are very easy to evade unless they can't be perceived like in darkness or targets are enclosed.

[Temujin]

Who cares if they can easily evade it?  Level 10 Stun Cloud IV, for ex. is 20' radius, first 2 rounds gives a C critical.  Comparatively, Fire Law has a lvl 7 spell and Ice Law a lvl 9 spell giving an A critical in a 10' square effect.  20' radius with C crit beats 10' square with A crit, even if the later spells form instantly and have longer duration.  Not to mention spells like Slumber Mist/Cloud and Vacuum spells which are pretty effective at low levels.  Vacuum is nice because its pretty much the only direct attack non-elemental spells Magicians have, which can come in handy when you're facing creatures resistant to bolts and balls.  I think a Magician ought to develop at least Light Law, either Fire or Ice Law and Wind Law to his level or more, as they are critical: Light Law for best bolt but also the first bolt available, Fire/Ice Law for an alternative elemental bolt + a ball, and Wind Law for alternative offensive and utility spells.  Mid-level water Law is useless unless you play a lot at sea or in swampy areas, even low-level is optional(if I have to choose between developping (impact-attack) Ice Bolt or Water bolt, I'll give ice bolt priority), and Earth level is pretty neat but you can just as easily focus on your extra base/open/close/TP lists for utility spells, depending on what you want.  But Light Law, Wind Law, and at least one of Fire and Ice Law if not both is necessary for a Magician imho.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Yes, but 'clouds', that are very easy to evade unless they can't be perceived like in darkness or targets are enclosed.

Depends on where you are. Typical canyon wind patterns are a breeze up canyon during the day, as the bare rock heats up faster than anything else. After sundown, the rocks cool faster than anything else so the direction switches and the breeze blows down canyon. If your "victim" has been chased into a box canyon less than 20' across, between now and sunset anything with a 10' radius or larger makes him meat on the table. The only way he can avoid it is to climb the walls, thus volunteering to be an archery target.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Oh, and when using the 'choke' spell, don't forget the verbal component:

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

*snicker*

[Dark Schneider]

Light Law for best bolt but also the first bolt available, Fire/Ice Law for an alternative elemental bolt + a ball

Light Law has the best bolt, but IMO the best proportion PP/damage are the fire/ice bolts (they use 6 instead 10 PPs). I only use 'lightning bolt' in special cases, like metal armor type or for try to finish with the first shoot, if resisted then I continue with fire/ice bolts, if not your PPs are depleted quickly).

A magician usually likes more to shoot bolts instead using vacuum, as havinga a good DS skill the damage is greater than a B critical, in both cases target have defense (RR or DB), as it has radius, then magician usually likes more balls. The vacuum is really usefull when most targets in area of effect have element resistance (so shooting a 'fire ball' to a dwarves group is not a good idea).

Mid-level water Law is useless unless you play a lot at sea or in swampy areas, even low-level is optional(if I have to choose between developping (impact-attack) Ice Bolt or Water bolt, I'll give ice bolt priority)

I agree, I only develop low-lvl for spells like 'condense water' or fog, water bolt is useless as with 2 lvls more you have ice bolt, very much powerfull for only 2 PPs more.

Earth level is pretty neat

In this case really depends or your games, as changing earth states can be usefull for infiltration and has the best walls, for defense is good (changing earth to mud can create great confusion in foes as it limits their movements). You can add some spells by 'research' in blank spaces ('water law' has many).

About 'choke', it has limits like undead, underwater creatures or articifial beings. And how about against air/fire based creatures?, so if you remove air to air/fire elemental, what happens?, are they banished when lose all HPs or they can reform after spell ends?.

[Temujin]

I would rule the effect of the spell is trying to prevent air from reaching the lungs, so elementals wouldn't be affected by it, only biological creature depending on (air-based) breathing would be.  The spell isn't highly specific, but that's what I'd deduce from the spell's name and the spell list it's on.

[RandalThor]

Something I like to put into play for spells like that is put in a SD/Willpower roll to have the victim be able to do something other than "fight the choking." By that I mean, when you are choking, people tend to think very directly about their next breath and may panic. The roll is meant to reflect their ability to keep calm and act rationally (which will, hopefully, mean efficeintly).

[yammahoper]

Change the choke spell to a duration (1 rnd/10pts rr failure) with a cumlative -10 to action per round of the choke.   If -100 is reached, target passes out cold.  At -200, target dies from aphixiation.

Higher level versions  would be 1 rnd/5pts of rr failure, then at Choke True, 1 minute/5pts rr failure.

Various ways to resist could be created.  A Sd mnv or additional rr's every round to break free from the choke, or not.

One thing not to forget about a choke attck is the terror it might create.  Don't forget to roleplay the effects and moment.

Killing Choke could be a high level version of the spoell that does the Darth Vader TK grab, holds target in the air and instantly chokes them out (target at -100, unconcious and dead in 10 rnds).  That's 10 rounds to counter the choke someway for the victims freinds.