Topic: Fireball, how is DB applied?

[yammahoper]

Ok, so a big Qu with +20 armor.  Were is the rest of the DB (+38) coming from?

[shnar]

+50 is not that impossible in RM2/RMC. With a 101 QU, that's +35. Add a fair elf racial bonus of +15, and that's +50. Add in a BG Option the Companions or if you incorporate Talents, and you can get +65 QU bonus or more. High, yes, but not impossible.

Like I said, "uber elfs"...

-shnar

[shnar]

Ok, so a big Qu with +20 armor.  Were is the rest of the DB (+38) coming from?

Sorry, typo on my post. It's +35 from defensive spells. +25 from the lvl 1 Shield spell and +10 from the lvl 2 blurr spell. This also allowed them to use a 2H Weapon.

So to recap, the DB is:
 +54 QU Bonus
 +35 Defensive Spells
 +20 Armor
=======
 +109DB Uber Elf

-shnar

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

+50 is not that impossible in RM2/RMC. With a 101 QU, that's +35. Add a fair elf racial bonus of +15, and that's +50. Add in a BG Option the Companions or if you incorporate Talents, and you can get +65 QU bonus or more. High, yes, but not impossible.

Like I said, "uber elfs"...

I never said it was impossible: I said it was inhuman, blindly speed. 101 in a stat is already exceptional, Fair Elves are also exceptional beings. So an exceptional representative of his race (the best of the best of the best), race being itself an exceptional race, performing an exceptional feat such as totally avoiding a fireball cast by a mere hound? As I said, it sounds pretty normal to me.

+25 from the lvl 1 Shield spell

Shields don't work against elemental area attack spells... I wouldn't personally allow Blur to work either since the character being blurry doesn't make it harder for an area spell to hit him.

[yammahoper]

No shield and no Blur against ball attacks, agreed.

Alkar and the like should not effect area attacke either.

[shnar]

oh, good point, no shield and no blur would help. The main reason I asked though is it didn't seem that DB was very applicable, if at all, to an AOE attack. I mean, if a wall of fire is coming down a hallway is encompassing the hallway, how does one maneuver away from that?

-shnar

[yammahoper]

Most wall spells and area effect spells (like Call Flame) do not apply DB.  If you pass through them or are in the area, you suffer the applicable critical.

[mtpnj]

Yeah shield spell does not apply to aoe spells like fireball.   My group does apply blur but only if you are the center of attack because that would effect the aim as we see it.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

oh, good point, no shield and no blur would help. The main reason I asked though is it didn't seem that DB was very applicable, if at all, to an AOE attack.

Notice that SL makes a difference about moving targets (for whom the AQ bonus is taken into account) and static targets (for whom another set of bonus is used). The way I understand it is that the "moving targets" bonuses apply in the situations where the target have plenty room to move away from the area of effect --hence what matters is their QUickness.

I mean, if a wall of fire is coming down a hallway is encompassing the hallway, how does one maneuver away from that?

Since you cannot in this situation, you don't and the "static target" bonuses apply instead of the "moving target" bonuses (QUickness is such a bonus).

[mocking bird]

Most wall spells and area effect spells (like Call Flame) do not apply DB.  If you pass through them or are in the area, you suffer the applicable critical.

Which gets tricky regarding '+X vs. heat' defenses that normally apply to DB.  If applied to these 'go directly to crit, do not pass DB' spells on the crit roll they are much more powerful.

[Dark Schneider]

They were uber-elves, so the Plate didn't reduce QU very much

With a combination of high UI, armor and spells, it's not that hard to believe. Shield and Blur spells (lvl 1 and 2) add +35DB. A high QU of +18 gives 54DB. Enchanted armor of +20 gives you a grand total of 109DB. This was of course the "uber" elf, one of the main opponents. The other elves had a DB of around 60.

It's 38 + 54 + 20 (his QU was +18. 18x3 makes a 54DB and his "magical" non encumbering armor had no QU penalty).

(he has 117DB and 154OB at lvl 5)

I really see some problems, but in your game system, not RM one, I will point them:

- Shield is not used against area, so reduce 25.

- +20 armor, and AT20, at level 5?, you have a serious problem with your item distribution. We have characters with level 10 and 11 and the best item we have is +10. See alchemist spells to see the level needed for any bonus. You are giving level 25 items for level 5 characters, that is totally unblalanced.

- Add that is a non-encumbering armor, why?, I think there is a mistake about elven items, yes, it is usual that elven items to be like non-encumbering armor but, how can they be made?. No race can be out of rules, the real reason is that elf race has many good alchemists, as they live eternally they can spend much time learning alchemy and creating magical items (what are 50 years for an elf?).
But this doesn't suppose that elf items are not created with alchemy as any other races. We can have special (custom) enchantments, but for armor weigth we have that the normal 'armor #' spells do that, and now add special design, where elves can be more accurate than other races.
As summary, I think a non-encubrance armor is about level 20-25 magical item too (using 'armor IV', you make an AT20 to penalize as AT17, and apply designs), so we have here the same problem before.
I think the problem is that stories and literature can give us the idea that any race character births with their 'typical racial items' under the arm, and that is not true.
You can be an elf, but anyway you need to find or buy an elven-armor, that can be a level 20 item, with its respective costs.

- I don't know how can a level 5 character has 117DB and 154OB, can you put this the calculation too?.

So, you uber-elf in my game would have: 54(QU) + 10(armor) + 10(blur) = 74DB; and it is a great DB for a level 5 character anyway (magical +10 armor for lvl 5 char is very rare in our game system), and wearing AT18 instead AT20 (for appling 'armor II' spell to reduce AT18 penalty to AT17).

Giving that armor to that character is like giving a 'constant fireball' item to your magician (lvl 30 item). In our game is not allowed for 'no time' spells to be constant, but maybe in your game is allowed, and if the case, you can make a lvl 5 magician really an all-killer character.

[shnar]

Just because we were level five didn't mean the elves were level five In fact, the GM effectively upped the difficulty of the campaign because we have proven to be too good at combat.

But having said that, our one mentalist fighter is the uber combat character in our group, and his 117DB came from high QU, Talents, those two spells (which is +35 alone) and then a small boost under the AbtP rules. While we all agree such a high DB is ungodly, it's completely legit by the rules. And he's had this DB since level 1. The only really questionable item he might have is one or two of his Talents are quite heavy (one of his options, he rolled the "choose your own" option on the Greater Talent roll, and the GM allowed him to pick Blessed By A War God) which accounts for the high OB and some DB. The others aren't even really that much of a stretch.

Here's the breakdown:
 +27 from QU (after armor reduction)
 +10 from armor
 +10 from Magical Collar
 +20 from BG Option (if he is aware of attack)
 +25 from Shield Spell
 +10 from Blur Spell
 +10 from AbtP bonus
===========
 +112DB

(my bad, I was thinking it was 117 from memory, but reviewing the actual DB, it's only 112)

As you can see, the only things that might be considered twinkish are his +20DB BG option, or the +10DB Collar we found. The +10DB Armor isn't that out of place for our campaign. The rest is normal for any RM campaign.

-shnar

[shnar]

Oh, and I should add, the OB isn't out of place for RMSS, since the some combat skills can be marked as Everyman (in this case, the Orc race has that option for either 2H or Polearms, and he uses a 2H BattleAxe). So for every rank he develops, he gets 2 ranks in the skill. I'd need to dig up his char sheet, but 154OB by lvl 5 is actually not the max he could have...

-shnar

[Dark Schneider]

Blessed By A War God

Ok well, then that is more every game system than RM factor. We usually don't use those talents, adding that we double the talent costs (we use the buying talents system), so adquiring talents like +40 OB for all weapons is really hard.

Remember that 'shield' is only used for frontal attacks, so it is not a static DB. I see all other normal, no problem.

The problem is really you create clearly combat-oriented characters (2 ranks per level in combat skills), I usually try that all skills to be used in games, so characters need to split more the DPs. For example, you should always use 'trade' skill for buy/sell, as (seller trade bonus - buyer trade bonus) is used, we can give merchants a trade skill bonus of 50-80 (depending its experience as merchants), so characters really can't sell treasures or buy magical items (I usually not use trade skill for normal/minor items, like normal swords, etc.) if no trade is developed, and there are many other skills (like influence) that you should try to use all of them in gameplay.

I really encourage you to use many skills in gameplay because is more like the real life, since we use all of them, characters usually can't develop skills at 2 ranks/lvl (maybe only 1 or 2), if not want to be really penalized in normal life skills.

An example, it is very usual to be cheated by a merchant if you don't know how much that item costs (trade lore).

Maybe you like more 'fantastic' characters and we use more 'real' characters, that is a result of any own game system rules, there is no difference as anyone play as it likes.
Anyway, remember to apply those same advantages you have to enemies (and I see are applied with you loved uber-elf  ).

But think in 1 thing, more 'unbalancing rules' (like allowing high talents, and other 'aids') can goes directly to your situation (this thread reason), an impossible case. So if we have a character with all 'aids' in 1 thing, like DB, and in the other side we have a normal character in another thing (normal fireball bonus), you achieve to an absurd confrontation as the normal one has no oportunity.

So, be careful with balance. We need some time for adjusting our gameplay system to a balanced one, so be patient, and achieve your own one by playing and testing.

AbtP

Sorry I don't know what is that (and maybe other non-english people too).

[shnar]

It's the Combat Companion's new Armor By The Piece system. Rather than 20 ranks of armor, it's 20 armor ratings, and depending on what armor you're wearing, you get a DB bonus.

And you asked how a lvl 5 character could get a +112DB, so I explained. Trust me, we know the importance of balanced characters, etc. He's our fighter (well, semi-spell user fighter) and it's what he excels at, though has plenty of other skills to balance (like I said, because of the race/culture's Everyman ability, he hasn't had to dump too many DPs into weapon skills). He's the current religion's Inquisitor, so is quite versed in religious skills.

Anyways, you asked, I was just replying

-shnar

[pastaav]

As you can see, the only things that might be considered twinkish are his +20DB BG option, or the +10DB Collar we found.

I think that if you ask around most GMs will agree that you should change the word "might" to "will" in the above sentence. Blessed by wargod is very not just a random talent. There is also pretty good reasons why there are explicit warnings to introducing magic items that grant blanket +10DB.

Not to say that you do anything wrong by the powerlevel you have in your game, but if you want to compare your characters to other groups and give any comparison with meaning you better exclude such stuff that very few accept in their game.

[Dark Schneider]

Well, I think pastaav is right, surely you have any unbalancing factor but you didn't noticed, we can search for it, we'll begin with DB:

+27 from QU (after armor reduction)
 +10 from armor
 +10 from Magical Collar
 +20 from BG Option (if he is aware of attack)
 +25 from Shield Spell
 +10 from Blur Spell
 +10 from AbtP bonus

I see no problem, simply rememeber that shield is only against frontal attacks, too, we usually don't add items with the same effect, so if you have DB by armor and DB by item they are not added, you use the greater one, the spell law explanation of no adding effects, I am agree with that for balance, if not, you could add many +10 items, as they are mid-level items, and have a great DB.
And the BG option is greater (15 points), so doubling talents cost it will be 30 points, balancing as you spend many talent points.

Well, my char would be:

+27 from QU (after armor reduction)
 +10 from armor
 +20 from BG Option (if he is aware of attack)
 +25 from Shield Spell
 +10 from Blur Spell
 +10 from AbtP bonus

That is 102DB against known frontal attacks, and 67DB against not frontal that I am not aware (combat perception) or 77DB those I am aware. So don't think you will always have 102DB, as the fighter usually will has to fight against multiple foes.

About Db no problem, simply I would remove the adding effect, so remove 10DB. And only 1 question

+27 from QU (after armor reduction)

What AR it wears, and what is the QU penalty for that armor?.

- OB: I'd really like you put here the calculation, I am using many options and I can't find how to achieve that, I am calculating as if you have 25 ranks in lvl 5 (2 ranks per level, everyman and with 5 ranks by TPs), so I compute: 20 (pro) + 20 (stats) + 88 (ranks) = 128OB. So I think the other is for talents, but again, doubling the talent cost, and as it spent 30 in defensive BG option, surely it can't buy another greater talent for OB, balancing.

Too, really we have a lesser OB looking at the next points:

1) Using RMFRP: as weapons are standard skills, the everyman only applies to skill, not category, so in the calculation, we will have 25 ranks in weapon itself but 15 ranks in category, lesser OB.

2) Using CC: here there is not everyman applied as usual, I think there is a thread about this, the everyman is used in the manner you reduce the style DP cost, depending how many weapons in the style are affected, so if the style only has the weapon you have as everyman, then half the cost, etc.
Look at this thread for it.

so is quite versed in religious skills

Yes, but that is only 1 per religion, and is cheap, try using all the influence, urban, tech/trade, etc. skills. You will se how your DPs are spent only for living. Too, I'd like to know how many DPs you use (fixed or stat dependant, quantity, etc.)

[shnar]

I'm not sure why you're even asking for this though. It's totally off topic, and has been shown that by *vanilla* RMSS rules, it's very achievable. Only if you apply house-rules does it seem out of wack, and it doesn't answer the original question: how is DB applied to AOE (i.e. Fireball) attacks?

Thanks to everyone who pointed out which DB modifiers were applicable to AOE attacks

-shnar

[Dark Schneider]

Well, that's right, we try to find the reason you cast fireballs and the target take no damage ever, but that is off-topic, if you are interested in continue with that start a new thread and we'll be there.

[yammahoper]

There are no core rules in RM to make PLATE 100% unencumbering.

It could also be argued that unencumbering armor does not reduce the quickness penalty, but the mnv penalty.

See Treasure Companion for complete rules on making armor generation (I believe the best, and very high level general enchantment, can reduce encumberance by two classes of armor type, so full plate can be reduced to encumber as AT 12).  RL and SL armors using this enchantment could be made 100% unencumbering.