Topic: Regeneration

[black flag]

Hi all folks!
I really think that the Talent "Regeneration" isn't very powerful and his cost very expensive.
The talent regenerates only Hit points. What do You think about bleeding loss and Penalties? Have You try to add to this Talent more regenerative powers capabilities?

[jasonbrisbane]

Hi blackflag,

One of my players gets regen or Succor for almost every character....
I think Succor does what you want (but I dont have any books with me so dont quote me on it )

[jurasketu]

While Succor and Regeneration are nice role-playing flavor abilities, unless spells are banned, it is a no-brainer to spend the DPs on Minor Healing instead. Its a double no-brainer for any character that only pays 2 DPs per rank for spells.

Assuming the character has to pay 4 DPs per rank - Minor Healing for 3 only costs 12 DPs. That beats the pants off Regeneration or Succor. Regeneration takes FOREVER. My players are always amused that undead have this "amazing" regeneration ability. So we have to remember to "destroy" the undead with fire or sunlight after pounding them to a pulp. Whoop-tee-do. Succor is "cute" in that it mimics the old D&D paladin ability. But once per day per level of experience? So what? If I have a minimal amount of power points, like 60, I can do 20 Minor Healings, rest 8 hours, then do 20 more. Then rest 8 more hours and do 20 more. And that's at level 1. And if I take a few more ranks, I can prevent death, range the spell for that handy "instant heal" during combat, etc, etc.

So all my players generally take Minor Healing (admittedly most of the characters are only paying the 2 DPs per rank anyway - the double no-brainer) and wouldn't think of wasting DPs on those talents.

If you ban healing spells - I'd ban the talents as well. Either folks heal naturally or you can magic them back into perfect working order. It is HIGH adventure role playing afterall... If I wanted death and destruction, I'd play Call of Cthuthlu... Oh wait. I did. For FAR FAR too long... Explains a lot about me. Not sure what...

Robin

[jasonbrisbane]

Oh, you made me chuckle..... Laugh point for you! 

[black flag]

hi jason and jura!

I would say that this talent for monster is feeble; imagine a troll dying from bleeding loss (even 1 point)... but trolls have "regeneration". Maybe I must thinking of new regenerative powers for bleeding loss and penalties.

[Pat]

Maybe Regeneration should be made slightly more powerful. For instance:

Regen (Minor) Concussion hits as written. Bleed reduction 1 point every minute and negative modifier repair of 5 every hour.

Regen (Major) Concussion hits as written. Bleed reduction 2 points every minute and negative modifier repair of 5 every 30 minutes.

Regen (Greater) Concussion hits as written. Bleed reduction 3 points every minute and negative modifier repair of 5 every 15 minutes.

This would still have little impact during a fight as most regeneration bonuses would take at least a minute (30 rounds) to take effect but allow creatures and players to heal if one side runs away.

[black flag]

You are on the right path...but the healing of bleeding loss is too long: the monster will die... maybe by round.
I must think of it (I shall return)

[Pat]

Personally I have my own house rule that all creatures have Healing skill of 50 (or above for higher evil critters). That way any creature hurt in battle but not killed, can stabilise themselves using their own methods. (Such as animals licking the wounds)

To me it would make sense that bleeding doesn't mean death (neccessarily) and all creatures  should have the ability to save themselves. (Unlike players who don't invest in Healing......They can just bleed to death)

[black flag]

I think of :
all the 10 rounds  Regeneration (minor) suppress 1 point of bleeding loss, (major) 2 points, (greater) 3 points.
For penalties: regenerated with the Concussion Hits relatives to the penalties...

[jasonbrisbane]

Hi,

Now I dont have ANY books with me, but I'd be careful with the definition of "Troll".

You sure your not taking the DnD AD&D definition of troll and applying it to the HARP Troll?


Unlike Pat, I dont believe Animals would stabilise themselves.
Animals, especially those in the wild (antelope, zebra, etc) that are attacked by lions and other agressive carnovores, dont  heal up when ripped apart by a lion (I've seen documentaries where they attack an animal near a watering hole, then a herd of elephants comes to drink and the lions run away (even THEY cant handle a fully grown bull elephant!). The animal then dies of blood loss. They dont lick their wounds and hobble away slowly.. which is what is implied above...

A Troll is an intelligent creature  (from what I recall - I dont have any books though) so it might be possible for it to learn Minor heal and cure any bloodloss through this.
Alternatively if you really want you can Create your own Troll variant (different from the HARP STD) then you could give Trolls the Blood Magic: Minor Healing talent (even if that sepll isnt normally available). I dont think the spell Minor healing is available as a Blood talent so I'd make it a 4xPP penalty for DP cost instead of the 2xPP cost. Since this is a special creature, I'd class it as an Advanced troll, not just a Troll (unless your Cyradon world is especially cruel!)

Just my 2cp.

[Pat]

Hi Jas,

I agree totally with what you've said above, an attacked animal would struggle if severly wounded. That is why I give animals a base 50 to healing skill (remembering that the base difficulty to heal is a medium roll or higher.)

I feel that any animal attacked should have a chance to stabilise a wound, even if that chance wasn't especially high. (using the example above, what if the zebra bit the lion doing 1 bleed damage a round, would the lion bleed to death because it couldn't stabilise itself?)

More to think about....

[WoeRie]

I think it is a misunderstanding that bleeding 1 hit/rnd is only a minor scratch. Think that bleeding 1h/rnd is a wound where a normal human beeing would loose consciousness after around 3 minutes because of the blood loss. So, it is not a small, nearly missed, scratch with the claws but a deep bite.

[Pat]

I think it is a misunderstanding that bleeding 1 hit/rnd is only a minor scratch. Think that bleeding 1h/rnd is a wound where a normal human beeing would loose consciousness after around 3 minutes because of the blood loss. So, it is not a small, nearly missed, scratch with the claws but a deep bite.

True....But since animals don't have access to herbs and magic healing, I think it's unfair to give them an automatic death sentence for a bleed critical.

[black flag]

I think it is a misunderstanding that bleeding 1 hit/rnd is only a minor scratch. Think that bleeding 1h/rnd is a wound where a normal human beeing would loose consciousness after around 3 minutes because of the blood loss. So, it is not a small, nearly missed, scratch with the claws but a deep bite.

True....But since animals don't have access to herbs and magic healing, I think it's unfair to give them an automatic death sentence for a bleed critical.

+1 this is why I think that Regeneration is too feeble!.

[jasonbrisbane]

Hi Jas,

I agree totally with what you've said above, an attacked animal would struggle if severly wounded. That is why I give animals a base 50 to healing skill (remembering that the base difficulty to heal is a medium roll or higher.)

I feel that any animal attacked should have a chance to stabilise a wound, even if that chance wasn't especially high. (using the example above, what if the zebra bit the lion doing 1 bleed damage a round, would the lion bleed to death because it couldn't stabilise itself?)

More to think about....

Hi,

Zebras are herbivores and only have flat teeth (no canines).
Thus they cant rip their food and dont eat meat. They would only kick the lion (if they got close enough and the lion REALLY fumbled his attack!). Have you seen the documentaries where the lion cubs after their first kill find out how NOT to attack a zebra - the HARD way! LOL!

Remember that hits per round is also a continued effect that lasts beyond the initial injury. As Tim has pointed out in the past (I dont have the references but could find them given a day to go through previous archives....)
(paraphrased): Hits per round is continuous reoccurring damage: bleeding from a severed minor vein (1-5 hp/rnd) a torn liver/spleen from compression damage which continues to rupture as you move/etc Crushed bones that grind on each other splintering off into muscles causing further wounds....All these things go towards damage as hits per round.

And who says animals dont have acccess to herbs.?... What do you think zebra's would eat? Grasses, leaves and other Plant material. If there is a source of herbs around that "makes them feel better when they are injured" then they are likely to go back to that spot and eat some. They dont have the intelligence to realise that they are eating magical herbs that can influence the outcome of their wound but their animal intelligence is enough to realise that they are in pain and need to 'feel better", so they go to the place where this usually happens. In Africa there are fruiit trees where the fruit rots on the vine and ferments when it falls on the ground. Animals (different Monkey species and Rhino's too) come along and eat the fruit where it ferments further in their stomachs, causing them to get drunk! They come back because it feels good (especially to their feeble little brains) so animals ARE capable of coming back to places where beneficial plants are available.

But I stil think that bleeders are a death sentence for animals. The question would be if you wounded an animal then could you track it to where it runds off to when you injured it? Even if hits/round is the result from a bleeder (and not a broken bone, etc) is your tracking high enough to cope?

So I think the rules regarding Trolls are still correct....unless (as I mentioned previously) you want to actualy create the Atypical DnD Troll that heals 1-5 HP each round in front of your eyes. Even then I'd still be inclined to use (modified) Blood Magic...

[jurasketu]

Let me add these thoughts...

First of all, let us remember that injuries, bleeding and healing has been the bane of Role Playing since the dawn of time. There's just nothing realistic about it. Period. End of story.

Yet...

Animals can survive horrific injuries including loss of limbs. Watch any nature documentary and all the beasties have a variety of serious battle scars. Just two severe examples I can remember was a three legged jackal and a crocodile with only half its lower jaw. Injured animals die not just from the injuries but because either (a) they are unable to hunt effectively or (b) fall prey to unsympathetic predators or rivals.

Many injuries that cause a lot of serious looking bleeding (head wounds, limbs, other surface injuries, etc), actually can clot up relatively quickly because of coagulation and the collapse of arteries/veins due to loss of pressure. Other injuries that only bleed slowly - the slow bleeding internal ones - take HOURS to render you hors de combat and then dead many more hours later unless someone can put in a chest tube. Never mind all the nasty infections that kill people and animals from contaminated puncture wounds. But that's all really complex and the injury system isn't THAT specific. Plus, sprains often don't cause serious problems until minutes or hours later (swelling and cell death symptoms).

So, we're left with a simplified, you bleed X per round until you die. In HARP, rounds are darned quick - so "light injuries" can easily kill you in less than a minute unless medical attention is received. Even a bleed one hit per round kills a mighty giant with 250 hits in only 4 minutes. That seems kind of "wrong".

Really, depending on the circumstance, bleeding will slow down all on its own.

So, maybe we need a rule similar to stun recovery like say this:


***** PROPOSED RULE *********

For each bleeding injury, the player/creature makes an immediate stamina check similar to a healing maneuver.

Light Injury ( 1 to 3 hits per round)              MEDIUM
Moderate Injury (4 to 6)                            HARD
Severe (7 to 9)                                        VERY HARD
Dire (10+)                                               EXTREMELY HARD

If successful, the bleeding decreases without medical attention one hit per round every 5 rounds. So, if the creature is bleeding 4 hits per round and makes its HARD stamina check, then the creature will bleed 4 hits for 5 rounds, 3 hits for 5 rounds, 2 hits for 5 rounds and 1 hit for 5 rounds for a total of 20+15+10+5= 50 hits (still a substantial total). Medical attention or healing magic still could be applied to stop the bleeding sooner.

Players or creatures with regeneration don't make the stamina check and instead automatically reduce the bleeding every five rounds by the respective regeneration talent (minor 1, major 2, greater 3). Again, medical attention or healing magic still could be applied to stop the bleeding sooner.

***** END PROPOSED RULE **********

Clearly, serious and dire injuries will still kill weaker creatures in short order - but the larger creatures could be expected to survive (if the stamina check was successful). This allows animals to "survive" sometimes - but not always.

And this makes regeneration a "real" talent (and maybe worth choosing).

Robin

[jasonbrisbane]

HI

(Remembering from memory here..)

Healing can be done by all. The level of success simply determines how many days/weeks/etc comes off the healing time. On the healing chart (in chapter 9) AFAIK the higher the roll the less time it takes to heal naturally.

So Animals dont actually make healing rolls, they just heal in lesser time.
But the "Bleeding" rule still applies... so what about - any creature that rests does not loose hp/rnd. ANY movement will incur the loss (so players cant move a player lying on a wooden stretcher...). Animals would lie stationary until the wound healed (min 1 day?) and would simply incur penalties for loss of food/water etc.
If they live past that then they can maneuver (albeit very slowly).

So NO Movement (not even a nose scratch) will allow a light bleeder to heal  in x numbr of days.
I like the idea of takling middle of the road on the healing chart.

Anyone have a chart handy to know what this would be for light, medium and heavy wounds?

(This way any animal with a Heavy wound would "Go away to die" and not move. If they DO manage to lie still until the healing closes the wound enough then they can then stumble to water. Otherwsie they die form lack of water/food/etc....)

What do you think?

[black flag]

Hi to All
I would say that I think that Regeneration is a little too expensive for the benefical effects that it provided...but it's all up to You for the real impact on the game; I'm agree with Jason: HARP 's trolls aren't D&D4 trolls (or AD&d, D&D3...You name it ).
My trolls and "intelligents creatures" will possess technical healings for survive.

[Pat]

Hi,

Zebras are herbivores and only have flat teeth (no canines).
Thus they cant rip their food and dont eat meat. They would only kick the lion

Ahhhhh but you're forgeting the first rule of survival....Mother nature's a bit**. Any animal if attacked will use any part of their body they can in defence since the alternative could be death.

Also, trained war horses would often be trained to bite as a form of attack (and lets face it, a zebra is just a horse without the colour, hence the black and white stripes.)

And who says animals dont have acccess to herbs.?... What do you think zebra's would eat? Grasses, leaves and other Plant material. If there is a source of herbs around that "makes them feel better when they are injured" then they are likely to go back to that spot and eat some. They dont have the intelligence to realise that they are eating magical herbs that can influence the outcome of their wound but their animal intelligence is enough to realise that they are in pain and need to 'feel better",

Hmmm so you're saying that animals can't have healing as a survival skill but they can have herb lore?

I like Jurasketu's ideas. I think using the Stamina skill as the Healing skill gives a good base line for animals natural healing. Also, the higher the level of the creature, the higher the stamina skill and therefore the healing roll.

So Animals dont actually make healing rolls, they just heal in lesser time.
But the "Bleeding" rule still applies... so what about - any creature that rests does not loose hp/rnd.

I'm not sure I agree with this one. The minimum healing time for a light wound is 1 day, for a medium 3 days and for a severe 7 days. This means you're saying an animal can not move for a minimum of 1 day. (And probably heaps more) The poor animal will die from hunger or dehydration well before any wound could heal.

I still prefer either my idea of a base 50 healing skill for animals or Jurasketu's proposed rule. I think both are more accurate, not only for playability, but as a more realistic approach to wounds, bleeding etc

[Karak_Nor]

"

Maybe Regeneration should be made slightly more powerful. For instance:

Regen (Minor) Concussion hits as written. Bleed reduction 1 point every minute and negative modifier repair of 5 every hour.

Regen (Major) Concussion hits as written. Bleed reduction 2 points every minute and negative modifier repair of 5 every 30 minutes.

Regen (Greater) Concussion hits as written. Bleed reduction 3 points every minute and negative modifier repair of 5 every 15 minutes.

This would still have little impact during a fight as most regeneration bonuses would take at least a minute (30 rounds) to take effect but allow creatures and players to heal if one side runs away.

"

(I may have stuff up the quote system again.   

I agree with Pats idea, however, I believe the book and Pat have it too slow.  Although they both stop Regeneration from being an anti combat tool.  Any player bleeding at 1 hit per round (a round being 2 sec) will bleed 30 hits in a minute.  With Regeneration (Minor), it would be mutually exclusive.  A 5pt bleed is 150 hits in a minute.

Maybe if bleed was removed at 1 hit of bleed every 30 secs.  This would give a 5 pt bleed 2 1/2 mins till it stopped and total hit loss over the 2 1/2 mins would be 220 hits.  However, it could also be made modula in that while a player is bleeding, they cannot recover hits from Regeneration.  The negative repair is a good idea.