Topic: Spell Compendium

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Okay,

Recently, somebody came to us with the idea of doing a HARP Spell Compendium. A book that collects all of the HARP spells in a single location.

Part of the reason for doing this would be to also re-price all of the core spells according to the COM rules as well. And perhaps incorporate some of the changes as found in the "Spells that need fixing" thread.

Personally, I thought it was a pretty good idea.

However, Bruce has a few reservations, thinking that the book would be quickly "out-dated" because of new spells that may appear in the HBs and will appear in Something Wicked when it is released.

So, we are posting this to ask for your opinions. What do you think of the idea of a Spell Compendium? Do you think that future products would make it outdated quickly?

Let us know!!

[Alwyn]

I am all for it!  If it gets out-dated, just do another one way down the road.

[janpmueller]

I must agree with Bruce. Although I also dislike flicking through book after book to find a certain spell, I also don't see how this could be remedied by another book to flick through (which it would be once new spells come out).
GURPS did that, didn't they? Having rules anywhere, and after a while, they made a compendium, just to publish new material again, making a new compendium... *shudder* That always feels my customer-milking to me (which I'm sure noone is intending, but the feeling remains).

Proposal: I don't know if this is economically feasible, but if you made that HARP Spell Compendium as a PDF, you could give it away for a lower price to anyone buying a new magic book (PDF or print, with a code or something).
Alternatively, bring out HARP Spell Compendium 1.0 as a PDF, and make versions 1.1 to 1.9 (or whatever) available as free updates to the people who bought the 1.0. I'm sure you're new shop could do such a thing.

So, all in all: As a PDF I would conceive it as a nice service to the people who buy all the magic books, as a printed book I'd feel I had to buy it, but wouldn't like to spend that much money (as it would be more expensive than a PDF), just to have it outdated after the next HB.

My 2 cents.

[kasalin]

I like the idea, especially a searchable, linked PDF.

Its probably easier to implement for hardcopy, because you can package it as a loose-sheet, hole-punched product of chapters.  Each chapter covers the product the spell originated in. Updating requires a new chapter and an index revision.

PDF versions would require the whole PDF be updated, otherwise the spells aren't all in one location.  But if the new ICE store tracks purchases, maybe this is easier to do.

[munchy]

Definitely a great idea! Would love and my players would love to have one book with all the spells in it.
As a pdf it would be excellent as it could be updated, maybe even like the HARP SF beta stuff, although I would also be interested in buying it as a hardbound book.
If it had all the spells from the products so far, that would be quite a lot, wouldn't it?

And what's coming up in the near future, Something Wicked for HARP but that's about it in big spell-bearing products, isn't it?

[mocking bird]

I also don't think it a good idea for a few reasons.  Mainly that it would become outdated quickly - or at least I hope it would as that would mean there are more HARP products being done.  It might also jumble the optional rules from the various themes of the books.  For instance CoM is pretty different than base book magic theory while the Codex introduces new classes.  Something Wicked will probably have new classes, spells as well as some magical theory as well - at least I would think it would on the last part.  So by default you would be including new classes along with new spells.
Lastly you might end up with potential customers that won't buy the individual products and just wait for the Compendium to come out.  While the updating the pdf may be a good compromise, I don't know how much effort would need to be done to do them.   But by doing so you have also outdated all previous materials and virtually made all hard copy book sales redundant which in the end really depends on how sales of books at shops compare to on-line pdf's.

[GoblynByte]

GURPS did that, didn't they? Having rules anywhere, and after a while, they made a compendium, just to publish new material again, making a new compendium... *shudder* That always feels my customer-milking to me (which I'm sure noone is intending, but the feeling remains).

Certainly don't want to derail this thread, but just wanted to clarify that GURPS did not do this.  They collected all the advantages, disadvantages, optional rules, and random thoughts that were scattered across many (often out of print) supplements into two compendia for the specific reason of not needing to produce such aspects in future books.  This turned GURPS into a three core book system rather than just one core book with random core materials scattered across many books.  This was not "milking the customers."  Quite the opposite.  It was making information available to many people who were not able to find or afford the other books.

This, of course, culminated with their 4th edition four or five years later which brought the three "core" books down to two with the idea that there would be no more advantages, disadvantages, and rules in other books (and thus avoiding the problem that caused the need for the compendia in 3e).  For the most part this theory has held true after about 3 or 4 years of further publication in 4e (with the exception of Magic and Martial Arts, but that's to be considered different for reasons that would take me too long to explain).

Now, back to the originally scheduled thread...

I think that I would share some of the frustration of seeing more spells show up after a compendium was released.  But I also see great value in such compilation.  If it is printed I feel it would be best to make it after Something Wicked and other such heavy hitting magic books.  Of course, then you might have people skipping over those books and waiting for the compendium.

Why not just publish it as a PDF even without the intention of updating it?  At least then you wouldn't have the physical cost of printing.

[jurasketu]

I wish we did have one. Of course, I ALREADY have one. Although I own the hardcopies, a few weeks ago I bought PDF versions of CoM and Base HARP (plus Codex) so that I could spend 10+ hours over the course of three late evenings cutting, pasting, reformatting and making corrections/changes to all the spells into a set of files for each profession that I allow and the universals. Obviously I have too much money and time...

My actual purpose was to make disposable spell cards with spell descriptions, base effect and scaling options for myself and players to reference when playing. The spell cards are really handy since the players can keep their 3-10 spells in a nice pile and write their ranks, bonuses etc right on the cards. No thumbing through books.

Where do I report errors anyway? For example, the Long Eye spell description is just a copy of Long Ear (and hence incorrect). Plus, Cloud Scrying doesn't specify a scaling cost for one of the options... (and those were in the PDFs - and I have the latest copies...).

Robin

[pming]

Hiya.

 As a "PDF Only" owner (I have no 'official' hardbacks; I got my PDF's all printed and spiral-bound down at Staples Office Store...well, except for my HB's and the Codex...still have to do those), I'd love to see a compilation of spells done through this site. Personally, I think it should be done in 6-month or annual updates, like the HB Annual (of course, I bought that! ). I'd happily fork over $15 per for that.

[Shadowblade]

Hello everybody!

Why not do it online? Put the spells in a database, create a protected Web-Interface where you can access it online and up-to-date or get a jit-generated pdf.

It's the only way to get something like that up-to-date.

Think about it.

Shadowblade

[janpmueller]

just wanted to clarify that GURPS did not do this.  [...] This was not "milking the customers."  Quite the opposite.  It was making information available to many people who were not able to find or afford the other books.

Point taken - I wasn't really following GURPS marketing strategies, so I obviously ended up with the wrong conclusions. Thanks for the clarification!


Oh, and Shadowblade: Nifty idea! An on the fly PDF isn't that terribly hard to make (though hard to make look good...). I worked on that for an automated online-billing system, and it is possible.

Jan

[Ecthelion]

I also share the reservation that the Spell Compendium might be outdated quite quickly once a book with new spell is released. And a book that basically adds nothing new being outdated a few months later is IMHO not a nice thing. So what about publishing all the re-priced and fixed spells with one of the next HARPer's Bazaar PDFs, perhaps together with an index of all spells existing to that date?

[Thos]

I also share the reservation that the Spell Compendium might be outdated quite quickly once a book with new spell is released. And a book that basically adds nothing new being outdated a few months later is IMHO not a nice thing. So what about publishing all the re-priced and fixed spells with one of the next HARPer's Bazaar PDFs, perhaps together with an index of all spells existing to that date?

I agree.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Well, I am not interested for a number of reasons...
1) Magic is not as prevalent, or should I say common, in my world as perhaps in others.
2) The spells in the core and Cyradon, as well as a number of HB's, are all I use... I do not have, nor are interested in, CoM and Codex... too much magic emphasis for me.. I don't need all that detail due to #1 above
3) Some may not have all the books where the spells are found and may not be able, or want, to purchase what they don't have.

Now, having said that, it seems that there are a lot of people who would thoroughly cherish such a tome! For them it would be wonderful, and, I expect, worth the money! So, I say go for it!

[GoblynByte]

just wanted to clarify that GURPS did not do this.  [...] This was not "milking the customers."  Quite the opposite.  It was making information available to many people who were not able to find or afford the other books.

Point taken - I wasn't really following GURPS marketing strategies, so I obviously ended up with the wrong conclusions. Thanks for the clarification!

No problem.  And thank you for taking that in the spirit in which it was intended.  I read what I wrote after the fact and realized it read a bit defensively.  Wasn't my intention.

[Mando]

After having put all HARP spells in xml format a few months ago (and having sent this to Rasyr to ask if it could be useful), and having done this too for other systems I DM, I have to say that the offline database option is the most practical. You can easily sort and filter data, so, if you want all magician spells, or all spells from a specific HB, it's just a matter of typing "magician" or "HB XX" in the proper field and you're done.

Manipulating pure XML data proved cumbersome and not really practical, beyond entering data, which was quite easy in this format. I can now achieve the same results in the database software (Filemaker Pro) that I am using, in just much less time, and I have won an onscreen browsing option too. And the software lets you export back to XML, but in a format that would need a lot of work to make as simple as the original set was. This goes way beyond my needs, so I didn't go that far.

Then, if you want to print that out, printing has become quite powerful in the modern days databases, and you can print out nice pages, with as many layouts as you want. And you can export full page layouts in pdf and lists in Excel format.

I did this to handle spell lists to my players, so that they have all spells corresponding to their chars in a few pages instead of searching through a lot of books (that they don't all own). Or when preparing a NPC, to have all spells in one place too.

It's easy to update, when a new book comes out, just enter data in the base, and you can output just the delta (new spells) or pdf export the whole thing again.

The problem is about protecting the data. If you let people edit the existing data or create their own, you just can't protect anything.

So the option might be to leave the update and customize feature "in house", and distribute only the PDFs and the lists (one PDF per book, one PDF per spell sphere, one Excel list per profession, and anything you want in between).

This database can also easily be exported to any other system, like php/mysql for online browsing, but this would then require to write a php front-end to provide a user interface.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

In the interests of full disclosure, I fully expect to introduce new professions with their associated spell spheres/circles as part of Something Wicked. Something Wicked will add to and extend the existing framework established in College of Magics, which itself built upon the HARP base book. It will not be, however, just a book of spells.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[janpmueller]

@ Mando: Great ideas! If the data is already there in XML, there are possibilities in abundance.
Regarding data protection and an "open" database: I don't see a bigger problem with that than with selling PDFs, that can easily be given around.
I'm very much in favor of a digital solution, so I'd like to list what we got till now:
- A PDF that could (a) be sold seperately, including updates, or (b) that comes bundled with any major magic-related product.
- An online database that could (a) be open for anyone or (b) for anyone with a login (that could again come seperately or with another product). This database would allow PDF export. This solution requires some work on a frontend, but saves a lot of work later (instead of new compendia, ICE could simply update the database).
- An offline database (i.e., downloadable software) that would include the material. Anyone owning the software could make PDFs locally, and possibly edit the data (houserules). Requires the most work, because it needs a stable program. Mando seems to have some useful experiences with that option.
- If XML data exists, ICE could make that data available (XML or database; possibly with a login, allowing people who bought some code or book) and let the fans contribute to the service. Several people here would be capable (at least in ability, time's a another matter) of providing a frontend, sorting mechanisms, PDF export. Judging by what happens in the open source scene, the product would evolve more and more (which might mean it's not totally easy to use in the beginning, I admit).


Additionally, I just noted I perceive 2 possible perspectives on the Compendium: It can either be a complete collection of anything magic-related (including professions, casting styles and the like), which would mean it's some work to (a) make and especially (b) update. It's also more of a product "of it's own" instead of a game helper.
Alternatively, it is just a spell list, sorted alphabetically (please, don't sort by sphere or similar!). This is very little work compared to the option above, especially concerning updates, and would be more like a utility (and wouldn't be all that useful without magic rules, so having that distributed somewhat openly should not spoil interest for the magic products).

IMHO, the former option justifies a product of it's own, even in print, although the problem of getting out-dated remains. The second would be a great service, and would make more sense as a PDF that get's updated one way or the other.

Regards!

[Cormac Doyle]

Darn it, Nick - now I have to replace my keyboard ... the drool just shorted something out

[Alwyn]

I'm with Cormac.  Nick, your just teasing us. 

I can't wait to see what you publish in Something Wicked.

I still think a Spell Compendium is a good idea.