Topic: Non-weapon attacks and Action Point system

[Justin]

How/what might you suggest for getting APs for bash, ram, envelope, etc?

[Marc R]

All are melee attacks, so use the standard melee AP range.

If for some reason it's a ranged version (Say a spider that tosses it's web "Grapple", or a porcupine throwing quills "Stinger" attack.) then 50% like a ranged attack.

[Justin]

Are you talking about 3.10 in RC4? Cause I don't remember seeing a standard melee AP cost, unless you mean standard as 'average/most common.'

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

If you are referring to 3.1 in Rolemaster Companio IV, then I would suggest using the AP costs for Martial Arts for other natural attacks.

[Marc R]

Sorry, read AP as "Activity Percentage"

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

If you are referring to 3.1 in Rolemaster Companio IV,

Meant 3.10 in Companion IV

[Justin]

If you are referring to 3.1 in Rolemaster Companio IV,

Meant 3.10 in Companion IV

I meant what you knew

[Justin]

Okay, same thread, slightly diff topic.
I'm trying out the AP mechanics. I am having difficulties with parts of the system. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, maybe others have houserules they can suggest to fix those problems, maybe others have explainations as to why it's this way, or maybe these are the reasons why you don't use it. I'd like to hear your opinions.

1 - Movement is bothersome. I figure out at what AP they will have moved that distance at that pace, but then the opponent comes to them, and everything needs to be refigured. How obtuse.

2 - Archers are freaking machineguns. Unless I did the math wrong, it's taking my PC on the order of 350 AP to close 50 ft at Dash pace. That is roughly equivalent to 8-9 bow attacks. That's murder! The only reasons they aren't dead is because of poorly-skilled archers and minuses I gave the attackers due to target's pace.

3 - Until you get into a toe-to-toe fight, the faster weapons don't get that advantage. But most of my individual melees isn't taking more than 2 attacks on the players' part--then their target is dead. The opponent's lighter, faster weapon gained them nothing except maybe first strike.

2 & 3 may be seeming like a problem due to the level of difficulty I'm putting the players against in combat, or the lack thereof.

[Justin]

While I'd still like input on my last post, nudge nudge, I have a new question.

What do you do with criticals which grant initiative?

[Marc R]

2 - Are you taking into account re-load times?

With crits that grant initiative in terms of "You have initiative" or "Target looses initiative" I apply it in relative terms of the one who did the damage and the attacker, always moving someone down the init scale, which should if at all possible be the target of the critical.

i.e. if Joe hits orc1 and a crit reads "You have initiative next round." or "Target looses initiative next round"

Then rolling init the order by roll is:

Orc1, Orc2, Jim, Lem

I move Orc1 down behind Jim, becoming:

Orc2, Jim, Orc1, Lem

I've tried other variations, but it gets complicated (resolving jim goes before orc1, but after orc2, when orc1 goes before orc2 causes brain injury in 9 out of 10 instances.). I apply the shift of initiative to the target(s) of the crit, since it seems to me to make most sense for the target to loose initiative as a result of a blow.

For results like "+10 to initiative" I just apply it as is, and assume it means the character has their blood up, is firing on all cylinders, and is "in the groove" so to speak. (The same as those results that say "+10 to next attack" or "+10 to next roll".)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Justin -- I will try to give you a couple of ideas on how to handle things. But, my specific suggestion would be to use the Activity Percentage System from RMC. 

I gave the AP system a try once myself, but had a number of issues, like you, and thus gave it up, though I did like the "Min AP Cost" idea, it was always more complicated than it seemed worth it. I even created a second-by-second system that used time reductions (this was for RMFRP at the time), If you are interested, I have it in my downloads section on my personal website.

1) Movement -- If you, as the GM knows that the monster is going to be moving as well, you may need to  tell the players this, and give a guesstimated point of meeting, and have them figure out their AP from there.

2) I think that perhaps you are doing the movement math wrong. Using the general formula found in the bottom right corner of page 17, I get that it takes 8 AP (not 350) for a normal character to move 50' at a Dash Pace. Let's work the forumula... (we will use BMR of 50' for this example)

AP Cost = 40 x [# of feet Moved / (Movement Rate x Pace Multiplier)]
AP Cost = 40 x [50' / (50' x Dash (i.e. x5))]
AP Cost = 40 x [50' / (250)]
AP Cost = 40 x [0.2]
AP Cost = 8

OR

Using the small table, just above the general formula, a character with a BMR of 50' who wants to move 50' will use 40 AP to move that distance at a walk. If he is Dashing, that gives him an adjusted BMR of 250' per round, so moving 50' is closest to 1/4 (from the table) Movement Rate, thus costing 10 AP.

3) I think that perhaps your issues with determing movement AP is causing a large part of the problems.

Crits that grant Initiative -- My suggestion here is to just let the character who has initiative go first, perhaps by giving an AP penalty to the other character (i.e. Fighters A & B -- B does a crit that says he has init over Fighter A -- thus, just make Fighter A's next action cost a number of additional AP equal to half of the AP for Fighter's B's next action).

[Justin]

Justin -- I will try to give you a couple of ideas on how to handle things. But, my specific suggestion would be to use the Activity Percentage System from RMC. 

When I buy them, I'll be happy to look at it.    I'm saving up for them now. (I could just go out and buy them, but I force myself to budget most things.)

I gave the AP system a try once myself, but had a number of issues, like you, and thus gave it up, though I did like the "Min AP Cost" idea, it was always more complicated than it seemed worth it.

I like giving faster weapons a benefit. My first RM character wielded a rapier, and I was frustrated that I could never be as dangerous as others when the GM was running the game using a very basic one-action attack round. (I think he ran RM just for the weapon tables and skills, possibly the spell lists; I don't think he cared one iota for the mechanics or completeness of the system, he ran very simple kill-the-bad-guys games.)

1) Movement -- If you, as the GM knows that the monster is going to be moving as well, you may need to  tell the players this, and give a guesstimated point of meeting, and have them figure out their AP from there.

When I was reviewing my old post I came to the idea of only doing the movement in halves or thirds, and that would allow for more adjustment and meeting head-on, etc.

2) I think that perhaps you are doing the movement math wrong. Using the general formula found in the bottom right corner of page 17, I get that it takes 8 AP (not 350) for a normal character to move 50' at a Dash Pace. Let's work the forumula... (we will use BMR of 50' for this example)

Hmm...well, I was going to pull out an old char sheet(Excel) and find out what i had done, but I had re-done them and didn't keep the old sheet around, so I don't know what I did. But it looks like you are right, I did math wrong somewhere. Maybe I forgot a set of parenthesis in my formula, I don't know. I'll re-work it and see what I get.

Crits that grant Initiative -- My suggestion here is to just let the character who has initiative go first, perhaps by giving an AP penalty to the other character (i.e. Fighters A & B -- B does a crit that says he has init over Fighter A -- thus, just make Fighter A's next action cost a number of additional AP equal to half of the AP for Fighter's B's next action).

I think this is a sufficiently simple and reasonable way to do it, and probably how I would have done it if it came up. Though there are the ones where you kill someone really awesomely and then "You have initiative next round." Vs who? Everyone? I suppose the thing to do would be to make sure the AP for the next action is before everyone else's next action.

[Justin]

2 - Are you taking into account re-load times?

Yes, but the thing is what Rasyr pointed out. My movement times are way too much, that's what was allowing them so many attacks. Even with reload short bow atks were only about 35 AP, and with movements in the 300-400's, that was a lot of attacks.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I think this is a sufficiently simple and reasonable way to do it, and probably how I would have done it if it came up. Though there are the ones where you kill someone really awesomely and then "You have initiative next round." Vs who? Everyone? I suppose the thing to do would be to make sure the AP for the next action is before everyone else's next action.

Do it up something like giving them back the AP spent on that particular attack -- that would be my suggestion. 

[markc]

Rasyr,
 Can you give me the name of the file of the time based combat system? I got there and saw the AP system and some other files and I di not want to just start downloading everything.
Thanks
MDC

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

There are 2 files actually

Action Time Generator -- a small program (you may have to find some older dll's to make this work as it was created using an older version of Visual Basic).

TimeSheet -- an excel spreadsheet

[markc]

Thanks
MDC