Topic: Casting times in RM2/RMC

[Maldroth]

Okay getting characters setup for our game and the wizard is having a real hard time with the casting times in RM. Biggest thing is if and when he gets an attack spell he now has to sit for 2 rounds of combat waiting to do his one action while the melee can feel free to do as they like. Considering starting at level 1 he doesn't have much to do for a while anyway. Seems like he's in a perpetual state of waiting to get better and then much later he'll dominate the battle. I just don't know the game nor player will last that long to see that happen.

He's looking at the prospect of lots of sitting around waiting and not really gaining much of an advantage for that lost time. I may lose the player.

I know there is the ESF options but those seem to shaft the player heavily as well.

Any suggestions? Would it be too much to drop the concept of Class I-III spells for the sake of keeping interest from my caster?

[Ecthelion]

The old MERP rules - which were quite similar to RM - had modifications to the casting rolls instead of the Class I-III spells. 0 rounds of preparation gave a -20 to the attack roll. For each round of preparation the modification was increased by +10, up to a maximum of +20 for four rounds. Using this rule the mage could cast every round but would have to suffer from a reduced effectiveness of his spells, as his opponents will get better RR modifications on average. Don't know whether this option works well at higher levels though.

[Maldroth]

might be enough of a band aid fix to make the lower levels just as fun for the mage as it is for the rest of the group.

[yammahoper]

Put a nice wand or daily spell item in the magic.  A Daily V with Sleep V, or wands with sleep, shockbolt, holding song, calming song, charm animals, charm kind, speed I, summons I or II(requires a 5th level spell to embed a wand with a 2nd level spell from own realm, or 6th level from other realm, thus summoned 1st level animal will fight for 5 or 6 melee rounds).  Also, wands with first level spells attack as if level 3, and second level spells attack as if level 5 or 6.

Channeling has some nice spells too, like Repel Undead V (level 1), Sommuns I & II, Calming, Animal Calming and Calm I, all level 1 and 2 spells.

BTW, wands can have 1st-2nd level spells, rods 3rd-5th level and staves 6th-10th.

Wands and the like are VERY cheap and nice for low level casters.  Once past 5th level, wands become less useful.

All beginning spell users should have a daily item, wand, rod or stave for handy attck spells that do not require prep (though if not bought as a bg option, they will have to attune to the item to use it).

lynn

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I know there is the ESF options but those seem to shaft the player heavily as well.

It is shafting the player to allow him to do something that he could not normally do? The -25 modifier indicated in RMC Spell Law Option 10.5 for each round of prep skipped is not shafting the player, it is there as a balance against allowing the faster casting.

Just don't forget that spells give casters abilities that other professions do not have, and the casting times is one of the original balancing features involved.

If you remove the prep time altogether, you will end up giving the mages a power boost over the other professions.

[markc]

 I do agree that the wait can be a pain but I also agree with Rasyr that changing it is a major shift in the game.
 What I have done in the past is to start char. at 3rd level or higher especailly if the playes are comming from another system. I picked this up from the person who taught me RM2 and keeped the rule when I switched to RMSS and really sat down and looked at all the rules for a new game.  IMO low level RM char are vary week compaired to other systems and players new to the game have trouble adapting.

 Another option is a device that can store 1 spell and be cast as an instant later. In many games this is a great item for a caster and not too unbalancing since it can only store 1 spell.

MDC

[Maldroth]

Yeah I know the balance factors, but I also know I'm starting to run into a problem where casters are sitting bored while the melee characters can be fully effective. I have to change something or lose players and I'm only one session in.

Wish there was something systemwise that could balance this out as opposed to just throwing magic items at the casters to fix it.

I think I'm regretting starting them at level 1 as suggested.

Please don't take this personal I'm just trying to address some the player's concerns and make the game as a whole more enjoyable at the table for all involved.

[thrud]

Make them use their brains instead of their brawn. Less focus on battle and more focus on problem solving.

[yammahoper]

But battle is fun, and if using the core exp system, the quickest way to gain levels.

If the party is large, there can be quite a wait for two melee rounds to pass.  ESF is your best bet if magic items will not work, and make combat move as quickly as possible.  One piece of advice; have hurt foes run away.  Makes a fight go much faster when the uninjured monster attacks and the hurt one flees.  The players can track it down, if they wish, but the rounds will take less time.

lynn

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Another option is a device that can store 1 spell and be cast as an instant later. In many games this is a great item for a caster and not too unbalancing since it can only store 1 spell.

Now that is a good idea (and IIRC, that sort of device was actually used in an example in one RMC product (I just don't remember which).

Give him an amulet or ring that has something like 20 charges per day. Each charge may be used to reduce the number of rounds of required preparation by 1 round. That way, the character has something that lets him be more useful in combats, but is not overwhelmingly powerful, and won't upset the overall balance.

Another possible option is to reduce that preparation time by requiring more Power Points in the casting. But make it a choice. They can take the normal amount of time, or they can reduce the rounds of prep  by paying 2 extra PP per round of preparation reduction. I would also impose a -5 to the casting roll for each PP above the base spell cost. (Note: This option would work well with the Fast PP Recovery option from Express Additions #3).

Another possible option, it a talent or option that allows them to make 1 spell on each list known into a Class I spell regardless of its actual level in relation to the caster.

If you just remove that time factor without putting some other sort of cost into effect, you are really upping the power level. The casters may not be effective every single round right now, but as they go up in levels, they will be, and their possible effects will quickly outstrip those of the effects possible by non-spell users. And such a decision will cause you problems at higher levels.

Your best solution would be something along the lines of what I suggested. I like the prep round reduction of 2 PP per round of reduction as the most flexible over all. It allows the mages to choose when to put such a reduction into effect, but also gives them a cost for doing so, and it does not rely on an item, nor does it give a large modifier to the casting roll.

[PiXeL01]

that is always the problem as a caster, you feel weak and useless when comparing yourself to the Non spell user, especially at longer levels. ESF I fear is the way to go, if not going for wards where the problem might be the same. Even at lvl 3 a magician has to wait 2 rounds to get a shock bolt off so even at that level there will be waiting. Then again as you move up and have tried being that slow and weak it feels so much better when what you have been trying to do success or you gain access to spells that deals DEATH. Right now I am waiting for my character to gain access to a Dark Fire Bolt (Darkness element based Lightning BOlt) and I have to cast it eventhough my mighty ob will be something like ... 25

[markc]

Maldroth,
 I know the horrible feeling that you might lose players because of a rule but if you change the rule it might break the game later on.
 In my game I start pure spell casters at 5th, hybrid and semi at 4th and pur arms at 3rd. It seasm to work well. And since we only gamed on and off for 4+ years the charaterrs did not gain a lot of levels and it was not unbalancing.
 I think advancing levels might be the way to go to solve your problems. I woudl let the players know the problems you are seeing in the game and say I am going to change the way we are doing things. Hopefully everyone will say ok and you can move on from their, if not then you can let the players change characters as a last resort.
MDC

[Setorn]

There are three in game optional rules that may help to offset the ESF for casting faster:
 
SL 31
FLAMBOYANT GESTURES
Using this option, casters can use both hands, and make obvious casting gestures to get a bonus to casting. This gives a +10 bonus to EAR for elemental spells, +5 for all BAR and non-attack spells. Anyone observing the caster is aware that they are casting.

FLAMBOYANT INCANTATIONS Using this option, casters can make loud and obvious casting incantations, to get a bonus to casting. (By obvious, we mean shouting, screaming, orating, or declaiming as loud as they can.) This gives a +5 bonus to EAR for elemental spells, or +10 for all BAR and non-attack spells. Anyone in hearing range of the caster is aware that someone is casting, anyone who can both hear and see the caster knows exactly who is casting. (Mentalism casters are not required to use incantations, so they gain no benefit from using loud and flamboyant incantations.)

SL 35
SPELL
MASTERY RANKS GIVE ESF BONUS
With this option each rank of Spell Mastery subtracts 1 from ESF for all casting attempts for the spell(s) that the skill applies to. (This cannot eliminate the base UM 01-02 failure range.)

Using these options could speed up casting and aids in showing how as the caster gains levels he can leave these tools behind. You could also say that for casting faster that it lowers ESF.  Also, make sure that early on in each development phase that the spell user has placed one rank in his primary weapon so that he can do something other than spells (parry until an Arms user comes to finish his opponent).
What type of spell caster is The “Wizard,” and what spell lists (spells) does he know?  This could aid us in how to advise smarter ways of using the spells he has. 

[markc]

 Another option is using a non standard iniative syetm that might change the time it takes casting from 2 rounds to 1.5 rounds. I do not have one to give you but I think thier is one called cheets that might fit the bill.
MDC

[Maldroth]

Rasyr,

I think the suggestions you made will work for the low levels, which I know is really only when this issue will matter all that much. Since I'm using RMX to introduce folks the casters do have extra PP to burn up on those spells AND it gives them a tactical choice if they want to burn up their resources faster or try to pace themselves.

Setorn,

That is also a good way I forgot about, just read that section and that will take some of the sting out of the ESF.

Thanks for the suggestions I knew I could come here and get some good ideas rather than just making a change I'd regret later and couldn't take back.

[Setorn]

Maldroth,

I am running my very first 1st level game and am finding it trying as well.  I usually start at third.  I understand the issues.  Use GM fiat to raise the levels up to three or four quickly. 

[rboleyn]

that is always the problem as a caster, you feel weak and useless when comparing yourself to the Non spell user, especially at longer levels. ESF I fear is the way to go, if not going for wards where the problem might be the same. Even at lvl 3 a magician has to wait 2 rounds to get a shock bolt off so even at that level there will be waiting. Then again as you move up and have tried being that slow and weak it feels so much better when what you have been trying to do success or you gain access to spells that deals DEATH. Right now I am waiting for my character to gain access to a Dark Fire Bolt (Darkness element based Lightning BOlt) and I have to cast it eventhough my mighty ob will be something like ... 25

I always thought much the same about low level spell casters, and my fix was to make items cast as if their spells were Class I, regardless of the spell's level compared to the caster's. This was probably too good, and in a later campaign we ruled that it was the level the spell was cast as that mattered (so you could pay more to get a ore effective and faster item).

Looking back on those campaigns, I think the real reason caster felt underpowered was that very few players had their melee combatants parry, so fights tended to be over, one way or the other, very quickly. If the players had been saner, and actually parried, the fights would've taken longer and the casters would thus have had more time in which to cast spells.

One thing to consider is Spell Store/Storing, which lets essence and mentalism users get their first spell off as an instantaneous spell by pre-casting it.

OT - looking them up just reminded me why I think the RMSS Spell Law's spell lists are so superior to RM2's. They give channeling a similar (actually, a superior) spell, Spell Prime, and Spell Reins is actually worth taking below 10th level (actually, given it has Spell Store at 1st level and Rune Mastery doesn't until 2nd level, it's worth it at 1st level). I love RM2, but not for Spell Law. 

[Ecthelion]

Yeah I know the balance factors, but I also know I'm starting to run into a problem where casters are sitting bored while the melee characters can be fully effective. I have to change something or lose players and I'm only one session in.

Then use one of the quick fixes mentioned above. If you should ever get your PCs past 10th level or so then you probably have to implement the next fix for the Pure Arms users as they will complain that the mage is too powerful and they are too weak ... and there will be no excuse that the mage was weak at lower levels - as he was not due to the used quick fix  .

Wish there was something systemwise that could balance this out as opposed to just throwing magic items at the casters to fix it.

I think I'm regretting starting them at level 1 as suggested.

One thing we often did in our group was developing some ranks in weapons in the first levels even for Pure Spell Users. That way they could defend themselves and were a bit useful in melee/missile combat. Using bows or spears also enables them to avoid fighting in the first row of combat. I also think that a Sleep V spell is quite powerful and that it requires three rounds to cast is OK for its relative power at level 1-3.

I would also suggest that mages learn the Spell Store spell. That way they can e.g. store a Sleep V spell, cast it in the first round of combat and afterwards support their comrades using their bow or spear. But that is probably only possible when using single spell development and not when using whole Spell Lists. Learning a whole second list for only the Spell Store spell is just too expensive in terms of DPs.

[dutch206]

I always make spellcaster pc's take ranks in a weapon, usually quarterstaff.  (the logic being that staves are also useful in magical workings) 

You would be surprised how devestating a well-placed blow from a quarterstaff can be.

I agree with Lynn that a wand of shock bolts or the ubiquitous rune papers make very good purchases for a new spellcaster.  Items which allow daily uses of attack spells are also a godsend.

The way I see the Rolemaster system, arms users come into their glory at low levels, when the casters are weak.  Later, the spellcasters clearly steal the show.  That is why I always enforce the "spellcasting time" rules.

Try constructing adventures that include combat for the fighters, logic problems for the spellcasters, and an unusual trick or trap for the trap monkey to solve.  Be careful of giving out too many tchochkies in treasure though, because once you give out a magic item, it is very hard to take it back.  (you can only use the "a thief steals all your stuff" gag so many times, after all....)

[yammahoper]

Most wands, rods and staves are made of wood and are low level enchantments.  This makes cracks call a good way to remove those items.

lynn