Author Topic: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?  (Read 973 times)

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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« on: August 01, 2022, 04:29:56 AM »
My campaign is dark and gritty. Danger lurks around every corner.
Due to the setting a lot of low level characters perished in the early days. This crit tables get you in the end.

I have noticed that since we started playing online my playgroup enjoy at least as much roleplaying as they do rolling for combat.
A few reasons for this
1) they are older and wiser and dont engage every enemy they come across - a city setting can be even more dangerous than a dungeon if you tangle with the wrong guys
2) time. battles can chew up an entire session or even two if there are lots of combatants.

Id even say there is more roleplaying and less dice rolling. This is a good change as my players get to be in character more when we play live and i encourage them to be in character (between sessions) when they are chatting online about the campaign or making posts about the game on our group site. I find this really helps them to slip into character quickly when we return to live play online.

GMs have to include a variety of encounters for their players. Some combat, some role-playing, some puzzles. I think playing online for short sessions (3hrs each session) has been a factor. We still have combat and its a fun part of the game experience for all of us, its just not as important to the fun like it used to be. Roleplaying encounters can be every bit as challenging and fun as combat. Its just taken us a while to realise this fact.

So in your game do you do more roleplaying or wargaming?  (by wargaming I mean combat focused encounters)

Offline MisterK

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2022, 10:43:52 AM »
More roleplaying (according to your definition), by a very long shot. In the last campaign, there was typically one combat every 2-3 sessions, each session lasting about 7 hours.

That does not mean that the rest of the time is spent talking in character :) Investigation and brainstorming make up a good part of it. But there is ample time for discussion with NPCs, either for major plot, minor side plots, or no plot at all.

I seldom do puzzles. The players are not their character, they are not in context and they do not know all their characters know, so I find it pointless most of the time. In the rare occasion where I design a puzzle, it is completely linked to in-context information I have given them, such as items or numbers of religious significance, past events they are aware of, or influences (including magical) they have already come upon. I try not to rely on abstract problem-solving ability on the part of the players. Assembling contextual clues from what they know of the world, however, is fair game. In essence, all my puzzles are plot-driven.

And I don't do much combat because
- most of them break the flow of the session instead of coming up at the appropriate moment for the players
- combat in RM takes far too long for what it gives - it's better to reserve it for local climaxes in tension.

Offline Jengada

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2022, 11:39:11 AM »
When we played in person, I tried to allow or be prepared for (but not force) one melee each session. It was the main opportunity for everyone to do some dice rolling and strategizing. I found that outside of melee, while the party strategized and solved problems, it would be 2 or 3 players at any given time, and others sort of in the background. That was a combo of personalities and character strengths in the situation.
Now, after 2 years of Zoom, I let that one melee slide to every session or two. More players are staying engaged and participating in the rest of the game, and the mechanics of melee do go a bit slower playing remote.
I agree with MisterK on puzzles, they're a difficult player vs character balance. I had a whole riddle maze, and I had to really work hard to make it do-able. I didn't want real-world references, and I didn't want to rely on the players having deep or obscure knowledge of the campaign setting. Since it was a druid's maze, all the questions were nature-oriented. But the time it took to prepare was only worth it in terms of my enjoying building it, less for the play, in the end. (Though they said it was the best riddle-adventure they'd ever played.)
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Offline jdale

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2022, 01:05:52 PM »
I think we should change your name to Druss_the_Threadstarter.  ;)

One of my groups prefers roleplay. I like to throw action at them but it doesn't have to be every session.

The other group prefers combat and is not great at engaging with roleplay. They are all capable of it, but it's not the group dynamic for this party. They did engage well with puzzles though.

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2022, 02:06:59 PM »
Wargaming, at least when we're playing Rolemaster. A typical session has 2 or 3 combats. My groups are not big on roleplaying except in a very light way.

We do a bit more RP when we play Cthulhu, but then again, in that system, if you are fighting 2 or 3 battles a session, your party will be dead in short order.

I have played in heavy RPing groups, and did have fun... it's just that the groups I play with now are more hack-and-slashers.


I agree with MisterK on puzzles. Well put.
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Offline Dax

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2022, 04:39:38 PM »
Easy to answer:
I prefer roleplaying, my players wargaming.

The reason is simple;
and that is the answer: It is simpler - they just role the dice and have a success.
(They are gifted: They are immune to crits; I roll open and never killed one (instantaneously) - it is unbelievable.
On the other side: They also roll low on the crits; stuns and hits take the opponent down.
I believe they rebel against the system soon.)

And MisterK is right about the puzzles especially that the players are not really "in the world",
so I help them here and there
(too much and it costs time, but I need that for me, for the wholeness of the world).
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2022, 04:59:04 PM »
I prefer more using the PC as the participant in the game, not the player as the participant.  I like the intrigue and the puzzles, the counter-move and the effects of rash decisions.  I try to limit the in-depth battles to one per session.  There may be some smaller instances with some type of combat oriented event takes place, but it's so minor it's usually resolved in 1-3 rounds, whereas the "major" conflict for that session may take 30-45 minutes to resolve.

The players are not their PCs.  This is a topic that popped up quite some time ago on the board.  The players spend DP to develop their PC.  In the game, Wandor the Barbarian has 10 ranks in Herb Lore, 8 ranks in Foraging, 8 ranks in Poison Lore.  I would never put Kevin the deli guy from Stop & Shop into the woods behind my house to find some food for us!  We are not playing ourselves in the game (unless we're playing H.O.L., but that's another tale for another time.)  I have no problem with puzzles, subterfuge, traps... my friends aren't the ones who have to tell me in detail how to pick a lock.  They roll the dice. 

5 of 8 of my group are D&D players and they expect battles and fights and are used to the limited skills that game system offers.  They don't invest in any skills other than combat and survival skills and have very one-dimensional PCs.  I like to take advantage of the breadth and width, the dearth of skills RM offers.  I think it encourages the players to make more rounded PCs and gets them more invested in their PC and therefore more invested into the scenarios and scenes.  For me, sadly, when I play D&D, I see it as a tabletop board game.  I'm not invested in my PC and I don't give a crap if he dies.  I can make a new one in about 3 minutes, I can only do what the profession is allowed to do, I can't pick skills to round out my PC, and the skills aren't even available.  It's pretty much hack n' slash.  Imagine playing a game where you can't parry because your class doesn't have that skill!  My cat knows how to parry!!!! 

Wandor has to solve the puzzles, find the food.  Kevin rolls the dice to see how Wandor does.  Any puzzles I do put in, there should be enough clues for Wandor.  Of course, I can't help it if I have a player who just flat out doesn't pay attention or who cares only about breaking things. I have great, disciplined/skilled players who avoid meta-gaming pretty much 99.99% of the time so it does make for great sessions when the PCs aren't skilled, but the players play the scene anyway.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2022, 05:38:40 PM »
Knowledge-based puzzles can be based on knowledge the players have obtained through play, or through skills. But I'm happy to throw more abstract types of puzzles at the party. Putting some skill hooks in there is great to get them clues. It's true that it's the player doing the thinking more than the character (or at least both to the same degree), but the player is the one that I am trying to entertain. I don't care if the character has a lousy time as long as the player has fun. So if I can get them thinking and talking and engaged in what's going on, that's a win.

That said, good puzzles are a lot more work to set up than combats, so I don't do them every time. There's a lot more of the players simply trying to figure out what is going on, or trying to make sense of a magical thing they encountered, which isn't necessarily a puzzle per se.
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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2022, 06:47:44 PM »
I think we should change your name to Druss_the_Threadstarter.  ;)

One of my groups prefers roleplay. I like to throw action at them but it doesn't have to be every session.

The other group prefers combat and is not great at engaging with roleplay. They are all capable of it, but it's not the group dynamic for this party. They did engage well with puzzles though.

haha, there is some truth to this. What tends to happen is I get inspired by someones response on one the threads and it gets me thinking about how other GMs do this or that.

Back on topic. Im ok with puzzles but probably not puzzles you are thinking about (this might be new thread topic!).
A puzzle in my campaign might be a mystery NPC villain or a clue dropped in an earlier session that helps reveal something new about the plot. Im big on intrigue and mystery so a puzzle might also be a map to a section of an underground enemy lair or a cryptic message found on an NPC enemy. The puzzles tend to pop up on there own sometimes, like the cultist ring that one of my PCs found about 20 game sessions before he realised it was a vital clue to defeating the cult (We were both quite surprised by this because the ring had sat in his inventory for so long we had both forgotten about it! It only became a key piece to the plot when the cult become a significant threat in the story... and the true purpose of the rings which are magical is still a mystery to my players). Im ok to drop some clues that even I dont know what they mean and im ok to just work out the details later (like the cultist ring where even i didnt know how important it was at the time it was found). More often than not, one of your players will give you an idea about the clue themselves - players are good about talking out loud about various theories - just pick one you like ;)

The theme thats emerging here is that GMs match the encounters to their players tastes and sometimes their own. Both Combat and Role-play both take place, just in different quantities. The GMs job is to keep their players engaged. What that actually looks like varies depending on the GM, the campaign setting, the theme or tone and the players themselves.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2022, 07:55:09 PM »
Most of our group(s) I usually describe a campaign as a series of fights loosely tied together with a plot.  A very tactical/strategic bunch.  We are definitely a 'hack and slash' gang.

I do prefer to have slightly more story than we often do, however I still prefer the majority of it to be combat oriented. One specific player in our group would prefer more story driven content, but I'd say he's 50/50 at the most in that direction.
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Offline Wolfwood

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2022, 12:20:12 AM »
Roleplay, by a long shot. Combat takes a lot of time and often for no reason at all (e.g. inconsequential encounters) so it is mostly to be avoided. Also, it is far more interesting to bypass those guard by using one's persuasion or other applicable skills, than by killing them.

Back when I was a teen, one of the players in my group pretty much dozed off during roleplay and only sat up when combat began. Our games also tended to be more combat-oriented in those days.

I recently listened to a speech by an RPG designer who gave a good argument for having a single-roll combat resolutions just like for any other skill. The thought has been lurking at the back of my mind ever since...

Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2022, 01:39:44 AM »
Roleplay, by a long shot. Combat takes a lot of time and often for no reason at all (e.g. inconsequential encounters) so it is mostly to be avoided. Also, it is far more interesting to bypass those guard by using one's persuasion or other applicable skills, than by killing them.

Back when I was a teen, one of the players in my group pretty much dozed off during roleplay and only sat up when combat began. Our games also tended to be more combat-oriented in those days.

I recently listened to a speech by an RPG designer who gave a good argument for having a single-roll combat resolutions just like for any other skill. The thought has been lurking at the back of my mind ever since...

single-roll combat resolution eh? might be worth a try. im thinking 3 rounds of rolls and narrate the rest. trick is to leave your players feeling like they contributed to the final result. I guess if the overall outcome of the battle is still in doubt then make a 'final salvo' roll to decide which side/combatant wins.

Offline Wolfwood

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2022, 04:03:31 AM »
single-roll combat resolution eh? might be worth a try. im thinking 3 rounds of rolls and narrate the rest. trick is to leave your players feeling like they contributed to the final result. I guess if the overall outcome of the battle is still in doubt then make a 'final salvo' roll to decide which side/combatant wins.
Indeed - I suspect a single roll might be cutting it down too much for most players. Cutting it down to three rounds would give the players an opportunity to consider their tactics and choose the point where they either flee or press on...

The designer I mentioned speaks here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPf13IWjlbU&t=955s

Offline MisterK

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2022, 10:54:56 AM »
single-roll combat resolution eh? might be worth a try. im thinking 3 rounds of rolls and narrate the rest. trick is to leave your players feeling like they contributed to the final result. I guess if the overall outcome of the battle is still in doubt then make a 'final salvo' roll to decide which side/combatant wins.
Indeed - I suspect a single roll might be cutting it down too much for most players. Cutting it down to three rounds would give the players an opportunity to consider their tactics and choose the point where they either flee or press on...

The designer I mentioned speaks here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPf13IWjlbU&t=955s
At the same time, most of the same players are OK with a single social skill roll that will decide the fate of thousands. The pen is not mightier than the sword, apparently :p

I wonder if the reason behind this is the lack of life-threatening consequences for social interactions (as opposed to combat). If a defeat in social interactions resulted in "you character is done for, only ritual suicide remains as an option, time to roll up a new character", I wonder if players would ask for a more detailed resolution (because dying from a single bad roll is not fun).

Consequently, if the outcome of combat is *not* life-threatening, going for a shortened resolution makes sense. It's like risk management - if the combination of threat probability and threat impact is low, you do not engage costly mitigation actions. If it is high, you do. I wonder if it is not the same for combat vs non-combat contests : if the contest has low stakes (impact), low probability of failure, or both, resolve it quickly. If the contest has significant stakes and probability of failure, detail the resolution. If the contest has goth high stakes and high probability of failure, it is a scenario or campaign plot, and the "resolution" is what the whole scenario or campaign is about :p

The problem with most RPGs (RM is far from alone in that respect) is that resolution is an all-or-nothing affair - there is no granularity. You have no official way of resolving a combat situation quickly if you thing spending more than five minutes on it is not worth the extra effort. You also cannot go into *more* details than the proposed resolution system if it's slow-motion bullet time. Conversely, you don't have a scaling resolution mechanism for non-combat situations either - it's typically either a single yes/no roll (most games) or a convoluted resolution system that is similar to the combat system (the GoT RPG social conflict system), but it's not scalable. The closer I know to a scalable system is the Skill Challenge system that was proposed in D&D4, but it is glossed over and lacks the gradual consequences that the combat system has - it's main saving grace is that it spurs the players to come up with inventive use of their skill set when faced with a challenge... if the GM allows deviation from the "prescribed" skill sets for the challenge.

In the end, the GM has to do almost all of the work for non-combat challenges resolution, while combat resolution provides a wealth of details.

As a side note, that's why I almost never do random encounters - since they are basically a waste of time for my style of gaming, I push them into the background - the ultimate scaling down is to omit them altogether. It's not that they don't happen, it's just that I don't talk about them because their severity (impact and probability of failure) is not significant enough to warrant spending time on them. I spend time on challenges, because they have significance - even if said challenge is "a patrol is scouting the area you're crossing to reach the prisoners' location. They seem to believe that someone is nearby. What are you doing ?" - for some, a patrol is a random encounter. For me, it is not, I never "rolled to see if there is a patrol". Releasing the prisoners is a challenge, and I set up events to increase the tension. There is nothing "random" in that, even if there might be the *illusion* of randomness.

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2022, 06:06:13 PM »
The old James Bond RPG had a pretty good graduated non-combat resolution system as I recall (mainly because Bond often depended on his wits or charm to get through situations). It basically worked out to a skill versus skill system. The legacy game Classified uses something similar, but it's a bit stripped down from what Bond did.

It's actually not hard to turn social skills into multi-roll events...you just have to plan a bit and work in multiple layers of rolls. I've also found it's easier in non-fantasy settings. It's amazing how inventive players can get when they don't have any kind of magical life restoration close at hand. Depending on the system it's also easier to design adventures to minimize combat. The reporter in Gangbusters is a good example of this. Of course, that system also has class-specific XPs, so the reporter is directly rewarded for using non-combat skills to their best advantage.
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Offline Ruffie

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Re: Do your group prefer more Roleplaying or Wargaming?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2022, 10:28:07 AM »
A bit of both I guess. It all depends on the players in our party. Some players like the gritty slaughter (and danger) of an all out combat where melee, ranged and magic takes point. Other players are the sneaky kind who like combat but do everything to balance it in their favor by laying traps, sneaking, garotting the enemy. We also have players who like the tactics of greater battles, outwitting a smarter opponent by using superior placement of forces and using the right weapon against the right enemy.

Then we have more social players. Those who like the story and the roleplay which belongs to that.

The beauty of RM is that I find it very easy to give all players what they want according to why they sit at our table. Sure we have to mix it up and sometimes players have to wait a few sessions before the situation is right for them but still.. they all get what they want.