Author Topic: Critical Strike Lethality  (Read 774 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline intothatdarkness

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,879
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Critical Strike Lethality
« on: July 24, 2022, 08:18:37 PM »
There's been discussion since pretty much forever about critical strikes in Rolemaster, often focusing on how lethal they are. For fantasy, so long as you have magical healing close at hand, I tend to think they strike a reasonable balance. But if you're into a more methodical approach to the idea of crits, there are some interesting points.

I don't know how the A-E idea got started for crit severity, but it does bear a striking resemblance to the Abbreviated Injury Score-Code system developed to measure traumatic injuries (it has six ratings, although only five are used for injuries that are not essentially instantly fatal - total severance of aorta is an example given for AIS-Code 6). Of note, the AIS-Code table lists both examples of the type of injury considered to fall in each code AND the probability of death from an injury in that code.

The AIS-Code version of an A Crit would likely be 1 or Minor. For that level of injury, there's at most a 1% chance of it being fatal. Reasonably close to the one fatal result in the A Krush table in RMU (which works out to a 5% chance based just on total number of results, not the roll spread). Interestingly, the same table has five fatal results in both D and E (25% based on results, not roll spread), while the AIS has a 16%-30% fatality chance in Code 4, and a 30%-99% in Code 5. The C column has 3 fatal results (15%), on the high end of the 2%-16% possible fatal rate from the AIS system. The B column is even more lethal (10%), with two fatal crits as compared to a 1%-2% chance in AIS.

Going by that system, both A and B crits seem to be more lethal than might be expected using AIS, and E if anything is rather understated by comparison. C and D both run fairly close to the real-world model.

Just throwing this out there because. I came across the information while working on rules of my own and thought others might be interested as well.
Darn that salt pork!

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Critical Strike Lethality
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2022, 09:46:31 AM »
Interesting comparison.

I'm pretty happy with the lethality of RMU crits, and don't think it necessarily needs to line up better with the AIS-C. The only beef I have with the RMU take on crits is the high incidence of crits of the type 'Foe fights normally for 6 rounds then dies', since it is anticlimactic and, given the fast pace of combat, a 'dies in 6 rounds' result is often meaningless for monsters/npcs (essentially they are going to have to be killed twice). I would like all of those sorts of results to also come with incapacitation or severe penalties for the 6 rounds+ the character is going to live.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline intothatdarkness

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,879
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Critical Strike Lethality
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2022, 11:00:34 AM »
I just found it interesting that some crit categories are actually more lethal than their real-world counterparts might be. And the impression of lethality also shifts when you're in a non-magic setting. Like you, though, I've never been a fan of "fights normally for X rounds then dies" results and tend to modify them in my games to something akin to "foe drops and dies in X rounds." For my modern stuff, I've replaced most of those kind of results with serious bleeding or shock-inducing results. Massive bleeding or shock carries its own penalties, so you don't really need to add them into the crit result.
Darn that salt pork!

Online EltonJ

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 377
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Critical Strike Lethality
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2022, 11:13:49 AM »
Yes, very interesting comparison. 

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Critical Strike Lethality
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2022, 11:15:59 AM »
I just found it interesting that some crit categories are actually more lethal than their real-world counterparts might be.


Yes, and it was interesting to line up the crit columns with the AIS categories, as there does seem to be some striking similarity there, even if the RM columns are more smoothed (not quite so dramatic a progression of lethality in the last few columns).


Quote
Like you, though, I've never been a fan of "fights normally for X rounds then dies" results and tend to modify them in my games to something akin to "foe drops and dies in X rounds." For my modern stuff, I've replaced most of those kind of results with serious bleeding or shock-inducing results. Massive bleeding or shock carries its own penalties, so you don't really need to add them into the crit result.

Those are good solutions, and I might try them.
          Up till now, I've just been considering all the 'D' (for 'Death') results incapacitating, and either having the character run for his life, or saying generic things like, 'He's down and out.'. But that is not quite so fun: when players roll 95 on an E slash critical, they want a gory description of a limb cut off or something, rather than just a generic 'He's incapacitated' or 'He's running away.'
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,102
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Critical Strike Lethality
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2022, 11:54:54 AM »
For the most part, I've found that when foes get those death in X rounds results, they have enough stun, injury penalties, etc that they aren't effective combatants anyway. This last session there was a death in 6 rounds that was interesting but not because the foe was a threat, it was because it was a foe they wanted to capture alive and it wasn't obvious he was dying. (Meanwhile the other foe they wanted alive had her hand cut off, so that was pretty obvious.)

An exception might occur when your foes are immune to injury penalties, stun, etc. Those are the ones that remain a threat until they are actually dead.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Critical Strike Lethality
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2022, 12:09:01 PM »
An exception might occur when your foes are immune to injury penalties, stun, etc. Those are the ones that remain a threat until they are actually dead.

Yes, and those are the ones I find most problematic.

Take 95 on a D Slash crit, for example. Aside from the 'D' for dies in 5 rounds, the damage is 3 hits, 4 bleed, -30 injury, and 3 rounds of stun [-75]. Those are significant penalties, but creatures that are immune to stun or have stun relief spells are going to ignore the stun altogether, and even creatures with Fortitude can reduce the stun and other penalties significantly. Even creatures without any of that are going to be still a threat on rounds 4 and 5, after the stun wears off.

We can compare that to 95 on a D slash in RM2: a severed leg, foe 'drops immediately' (which I take to mean incapacitated, since there's no explanation of any injury penalties), and dies in 6 rounds due to shock and blood loss, +20 hits.

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline intothatdarkness

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,879
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Critical Strike Lethality
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2022, 01:56:45 PM »
I always took "drops immediately" in any RM2 crit to mean incapacitated (at least) and no longer capable of action (aside from possibly some theatrical groaning as the target expired).

One interesting difference between AIS and RM tables is it's quite possible E Crits are MORE common than Category 5 injuries. AIS also doesn't distinguish between injury types (Slash, Krush, etc.). One could also take the 30%-99% fatality rate on Cat 5 to indicate what kind of injuries are in that grouping and proceed accordingly. For one of the tables I did, I used the 30% to determine how many fatal results there would be (3 in this case, as there were 10 distinct crit slots), but those results were ALL lethal with no exception. I scattered a few more in that band with the potential to be lethal if not treated quickly (major bleeding, traumatic damage causing serious shock, and so on). In the end 3 results were instantly lethal and another 2 had the potential to become lethal if ignored. However, I also made that damage category a bit less common than an E crit might be. Keep in mind, this is also a setting without any magical healing.
Darn that salt pork!

Offline rdanhenry

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,567
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • This sentence is false.
Re: Critical Strike Lethality
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2022, 03:50:32 PM »
Two different systems don't line up exactly? Is that surprising? Why would you expect a close match between a system that has six categories and one that has five "basic" categories, but a total of 10 (Spell Law takes it up to J criticals). Clearly, the one is not meant to be a conversion of the other.
Rolemaster: When you absolutely, positively need to have a chance of tripping over an imaginary dead turtle.

Offline intothatdarkness

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,879
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Critical Strike Lethality
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2022, 04:00:55 PM »
Two different systems don't line up exactly? Is that surprising? Why would you expect a close match between a system that has six categories and one that has five "basic" categories, but a total of 10 (Spell Law takes it up to J criticals). Clearly, the one is not meant to be a conversion of the other.

As I clearly stated, it's an observation and an interesting comparison. I never said one was intended to be a conversion of the other...just that there are some interesting similarities and points of departure. It's also a nice starting point for people who might want to expand or modify a crit system for their own games. You don't like it? Ignore it.
Darn that salt pork!