Topic: Play Balance Issues - have a PC with an OP weapon

[Druss_the_Legend]

Iv posted about this in the past but would be interested in what current forum members do to address play balance issues like this.

I have a PC with an OP weapon. it hits for large amounts of damage. Understandably he is rather attached to the sword after a number of years now so the horse may well have bolted.

How do I balance the weapon without the player feeling resentful? How would you do it? I have some ideas such as:
1. having them find a cursed weapon that replaces his old sword
2. having it break (im slack on breakage rules so this might be too heavy handed to introduce them now)
3. having the weapon be stolen or confiscated as part of the story (seems more likely as he has made enemies and they certainly would know about the combat threat he poses but probably attribute his prowess in battle to him and not his sword)
4. let him keep it but somehow lessen its effectiveness (its magical so maybe the magic wears off or needs recharging)
5. the sword itself is sentient and starts to develop its own goals and motivations and steers the PC in a certain direction.
6. The sword was confiscated for a time by an NPC who was using it so he might come looking for it? The NPC is a fighter type and probably took a liking to it for the time he had it and could have event added some other 'enchantment' to it that is a drawback?
7. Having the party face an enemy with charm/mind control who uses the PC and his deadly sword against the party making them see how dangerous both of them are to have around (note the PC is quite resistant to magic from his background)
8. let him keep it and just make the enemies he fights tougher (assassins with paralysing poison would deal with him pretty quickly)

[intothatdarkness]

I always liked having ways to limit the number of uses. In my setting, the more powerful weapons tend to be ancient Dwarven items. They're powered by runes, but those runes have a  set number of uses per day. You could also have it start to lose power, or maybe it absorbs a certain number of hits and once it's "full" it doesn't work until it recharges itself overnight (by using those stored points).

Sentient weapons are interesting, but that can sometimes be difficult to navigate if the player decides the GM's using the weapon to square things or otherwise single out that player.

Having the weapon stolen could provide a nice side quest of some kind, and when the player recovers it you could institute some changes (limited charges, whatever) and say the people who stole the weapon tried to figure out what makes it tick and somehow 'broke' it.

It also stands to reason that a character with a hyper-powerful weapon would attract a lot of attention from other powerful NPCs who would really like to have said weapon.

[Druss_the_Legend]

I always liked having ways to limit the number of uses. In my setting, the more powerful weapons tend to be ancient Dwarven items. They're powered by runes, but those runes have a  set number of uses per day. You could also have it start to lose power, or maybe it absorbs a certain number of hits and once it's "full" it doesn't work until it recharges itself overnight (by using those stored points).

Sentient weapons are interesting, but that can sometimes be difficult to navigate if the player decides the GM's using the weapon to square things or otherwise single out that player.

Having the weapon stolen could provide a nice side quest of some kind, and when the player recovers it you could institute some changes (limited charges, whatever) and say the people who stole the weapon tried to figure out what makes it tick and somehow 'broke' it.

It also stands to reason that a character with a hyper-powerful weapon would attract a lot of attention from other powerful NPCs who would really like to have said weapon.

capture by enemy guys seems doable. could even lure him into a trap.

Previous owner hears about the weapon and learns of its location and sends some henchmen to get it back. Would def spark a side quest to recover it. still prob finds its way back to the PC though. back to square one.

allowing a sentient weapon to find its way into his hands that replaces it could get me back to square one, if the new weapon is cursed its going to want to become his new favourite weapon of choice but still adds a complication that is going to be unsatisfactory to the player.

im considering giving him a cursed weapon that sets him against his allies in battle. he already has frenzy and is rather dangerous to everyone when he uses it. could be a kind of Bloodlust Curse (harder to stop than frenzy and could 'turn on' without the player being ready for it. This would turn the attacking power of the weapon against the party and could initiate them getting rid of it themselves perhaps.

[Cory Magel]

1. The character must sacrifice the sword in some way to save something more important to them (although I'd try to make sure there's a reasonable, if balanced, replacement).

2. Unbeknownst to the character the sword has slowly been corrupting them somehow. They have blackouts, there are reports of that character doing 'bad' things, etc. Essentially slowly force the realization that they'll need to give it up or lose control completely.

3. Cause it to be a liability in terms of it being hunted (and therefore the party) due to its power.

[MisterK]

What Cory said.

I've actually used all three. The player kept the blade throughout a five-year campaign (because it was also a plot device), but was always trying to find a less dangerous replacement for "everyday use".

[pastaav]

If the weapon really is powerful enemies should have plenty of reason to develop magical countermeasures to take out the weapon. Let the player use the weapon in a meaningful fight and have the weapon damaged. After this, you can follow up with a quest to restore the weapon, but when the player succeeds the powers of the weapon have been altered.

You might also consider talking to the player and state your concern that other players are not enjoying the game as much as possible because the OP weapon gives the character an unfair advantage. Renegotiating the power level of the weapon to make the game more fun for the group might be acceptable for the player if he/she understands the alternative is losing access to the weapon.

[rdanhenry]

If the weapon really puts the PC above his comrades in battle, any enemies familiar with them, even just by reputation, are going to focus their attacks on him.

The "narrative" way to dispose of such an item is to have it lost while doing something really cool, like killing some epic monster that is normally unkillable. It allows him to kill the monster, but is destroyed in the process. Or maybe it needs to be left in corpse to keep it dead.

Alternatively, if you're ready to move in that direction, give each of the other characters a powerful item and start chucking really powerful enemies at them.

[netbat]

I would consider adding more enemies and challenges that the sword is not best against. Both non-combat situations and combat situations where slashing weapons don't work as well(consider half damage vs constructs or other solid things that would blunt a sharpened weapon) or things that are best dealt with at range.

[Spectre771]

The examples you listed are pretty "out of the player's control" type of events.  Breakage Factor is good, but if you haven't been using it all along, it will seem too revengeful.  If it is such a well crafted magic weapon, it will probably have a high resistance roll anyway.

However... if you introduce Elemental Companion into the mix, PEM (Proto Elemental Material) is a perfect way to possibly dissolve the sword.  PEM is very dangerous and downright horrifying if from a high level elemental.  You don't have to worry about introducing BF as this is a flat out RR.

Something more subtle is to have the party running into a recurring NPC, not even directly interacting with it, but seemingly popping up on the periphery from time to time.  This NPC is an agent hired by the creator of the sword, a relative of the creator of the sword, an enemy of the creator of the sword, the sword's previous owner, decedent of the sword's previous owner.  The agent will have been collecting information long enough to notice strengths and weaknesses of the sword owner and have intimate knowledge of the sword.  Without knowing the sword's abilities, say it's a sword of heat, the NPC will have armour or a shield that negates heat crits.   If using Elemental Companion, the NPC has armour or shield made of Catoatine <sp>, an elemental material the specifically cancels magic properties.  Or even better, the armour is of elemental cold, ice, water, or air and only elemental magic can deal damage or crits.

Without adding EC to the mix, design your NPC baddies to have defenses vs. the sword's properties.  Shield of +25 DB, Sword of Quickness (RMC-I or C&T 1)  that gives +10 initiative bonus, 3 attacks per round, and floats in water!    Since PCs can only parry 2 attacks max, the third attack has a very good chance of hitting the PC.

[Druss_the_Legend]

Some thought provoking ideas posted here thus far. Thanks!

I have come to the realisation that the sword and the backstory of the sword he carries is a perfect opportunity to get the player to be even more invested in the setting.

Options for building the sword into the story
1) Ask the player to write a back story for the sword himself, Who created the sword? why did they create the sword? Where was the sword made? Let the player know that the sword will have a plot hook linked to its background that will play out in a future session.
2) Have the previous owner of the sword send a henchman/messenger to find it  - they approach the PC with a message which is either an invitation to meet him or a warning that the sword needs to be returned to him within a number of days/weeks. The messenger could inform the PC that hired assassins will be sent against the PC if they do not show up at the stated time/place.

The messenger might be legitimate or an enemy who wants to lure the PC into a trap and take possession of the sword.

Its also possible the previous owner is legitimate and has a quest for the PC and needs his help (the quest might involve the destruction of the sword to be successful) or perhaps the owner has a warning for the PC about a drawback/curse the sword has that he is unaware of. Another quest to remove the curse which also powers down the power of the sword.

thoughts?

[MisterK]

Without adding EC to the mix, design your NPC baddies to have defenses vs. the sword's properties.  Shield of +25 DB, Sword of Quickness (RMC-I or C&T 1)  that gives +10 initiative bonus, 3 attacks per round, and floats in water!    Since PCs can only parry 2 attacks max, the third attack has a very good chance of hitting the PC.

I don't think the issue is to defeat the PC in combat - after all, a GM can *always* do that, it's the kind of "unwinnable boss fight" that is aplenty in a number of video games: the Big Baddie arrives on the scene, eyes the party and says to his (numerous) minions something like "the one with the sword is mine. Just keep the rest busy while I deal with him." It's easy (and - personal opinion here - pretty cliché) , but I don't think it's the point.

Having the PC relinquish control of the weapon himself - for the greater good, for personal reasons, or for safety - is probably better because it gives the player agency. The player *chooses* to lose the weapon or, at the very least, refrain from using it in less than climatic circumstances. But this cannot come out of the blue. Backstory is nice, but forewarning in-game events are essential (because backstory is "tell, not show" while in-game events are "show, not tell"). Furthermore, in-game events give the PCs a chance to find another solution to the problem and influence the outcome, even if, in the end, the weapon *will* be removed from the campaign.
This takes time. Forewarning events, recurring NPCs, developing plot needs time to set up and build up. But the idea is to have the player(s) think "this was a great story" instead of "right, the uber-weapon is gone, let's move on to something else".

[Spectre771]

Some thought provoking ideas posted here thus far. Thanks!

I have come to the realisation that the sword and the backstory of the sword he carries is a perfect opportunity to get the player to be even more invested in the setting.

Options for building the sword into the story
1) Ask the player to write a back story for the sword himself, Who created the sword? why did they create the sword? Where was the sword made? Let the player know that the sword will have a plot hook linked to its background that will play out in a future session.
2) Have the previous owner of the sword send a henchman/messenger to find it  - they approach the PC with a message which is either an invitation to meet him or a warning that the sword needs to be returned to him within a number of days/weeks. The messenger could inform the PC that hired assassins will be sent against the PC if they do not show up at the stated time/place.

The messenger might be legitimate or an enemy who wants to lure the PC into a trap and take possession of the sword.

Its also possible the previous owner is legitimate and has a quest for the PC and needs his help (the quest might involve the destruction of the sword to be successful) or perhaps the owner has a warning for the PC about a drawback/curse the sword has that he is unaware of. Another quest to remove the curse which also powers down the power of the sword.

thoughts?

Both options are great, but #1 is more difficult.  Did the PC craft it himself or hire someone to craft it?  If that is not the case, then the sword's backstory is more in the GM's hands.  It's like buying a used car.  What is the car's backstory?  Well I bought it 4 years ago from an old lady.  I have no idea what that old lady did with it.  Was she a drug runner?  Did she use it as a getaway car?  Did she steal it from a restaurant valet lot?  Any of THOSE reasons would be good enough reason to have people coming after me for the car for revenge or whatnot. 

Now, if I bought it new off the lot, there's not much backstory and I am the sole creator of the car's history.  However, did I use the car for any of those nefarious deeds?  Then I can see people coming after me.  I have one party of PCs who slaughtered a bunch of monks at a shrine and now the remaining members are hunting the party.  Any family member killed by your PC could be hunted for revenge and it could have nothing to do with the sword itself.  They can certainly prepare a defense vs. the sword's powers.

[intothatdarkness]

Without adding EC to the mix, design your NPC baddies to have defenses vs. the sword's properties.  Shield of +25 DB, Sword of Quickness (RMC-I or C&T 1)  that gives +10 initiative bonus, 3 attacks per round, and floats in water!    Since PCs can only parry 2 attacks max, the third attack has a very good chance of hitting the PC.

I don't think the issue is to defeat the PC in combat - after all, a GM can *always* do that, it's the kind of "unwinnable boss fight" that is aplenty in a number of video games: the Big Baddie arrives on the scene, eyes the party and says to his (numerous) minions something like "the one with the sword is mine. Just keep the rest busy while I deal with him." It's easy (and - personal opinion here - pretty cliché) , but I don't think it's the point.

Having the PC relinquish control of the weapon himself - for the greater good, for personal reasons, or for safety - is probably better because it gives the player agency. The player *chooses* to lose the weapon or, at the very least, refrain from using it in less than climatic circumstances. But this cannot come out of the blue. Backstory is nice, but forewarning in-game events are essential (because backstory is "tell, not show" while in-game events are "show, not tell"). Furthermore, in-game events give the PCs a chance to find another solution to the problem and influence the outcome, even if, in the end, the weapon *will* be removed from the campaign.
This takes time. Forewarning events, recurring NPCs, developing plot needs time to set up and build up. But the idea is to have the player(s) think "this was a great story" instead of "right, the uber-weapon is gone, let's move on to something else".

This works IF the PC is actually willing to give up the sword. Not all players will be. I've had a player or two who would only give up such a weapon when it was pried from their cold, dead fingers...and even then they'd try to rise from the dead to get the weapon back. Not all players can be coaxed or manipulated (and that's sort of what we're talking about) to make greater good decisions.

[MisterK]

This works IF the PC is actually willing to give up the sword. Not all players will be. I've had a player or two who would only give up such a weapon when it was pried from their cold, dead fingers...and even then they'd try to rise from the dead to get the weapon back. Not all players can be coaxed or manipulated (and that's sort of what we're talking about) to make greater good decisions.

Maybe. But if the PC does not, maybe the other PCs will. Social pressure is a thing.

And in the last resort when the other PCs won't, then the NPCs will - probably not the big evil NPCs, as a matter of fact, but those who might think that the greater good is sometimes won with lesser sacrifices - and a weapon is a lesser sacrifice.
Allies. Friends. Mentors. Liege.

If there is a good in-world reason for the weapon to disappear, someone will take upon themselves to see it done. And maybe the big evil NPC does *not* want that, because having the weapon in the hands of a self-centered PC prevents it from being used for a noble purpose. How would it feel to be on the side of the bad guys for once ?

The question is less "do you want to give it up ?", rather "how much are you ready to sacrifice to keep it ?". Your friends ? Your family ? Your adventuring companions ? Your kingdom ? The whole world ? Your own soul and free will ?

[Druss_the_Legend]

Some thought provoking ideas posted here thus far. Thanks!

Both options are great, but #1 is more difficult.  Did the PC craft it himself or hire someone to craft it?  If that is not the case, then the sword's backstory is more in the GM's hands.  It's like buying a used car.  What is the car's backstory?  Well I bought it 4 years ago from an old lady.  I have no idea what that old lady did with it.  Was she a drug runner?  Did she use it as a getaway car?  Did she steal it from a restaurant valet lot?  Any of THOSE reasons would be good enough reason to have people coming after me for the car for revenge or whatnot. 

Now, if I bought it new off the lot, there's not much backstory and I am the sole creator of the car's history.  However, did I use the car for any of those nefarious deeds?  Then I can see people coming after me.  I have one party of PCs who slaughtered a bunch of monks at a shrine and now the remaining members are hunting the party.  Any family member killed by your PC could be hunted for revenge and it could have nothing to do with the sword itself.  They can certainly prepare a defense vs. the sword's powers.

The sword was found on a quest long forgotten, probably taken from a fallen enemy or found in a house the PC burgled - his main PC ally and friend is a burglar. So sword back story very much unknown and agree best created by the GM.

This post has given me a new angle to consider. What if the sword is 'Heroic' in purpose and the PC has not been using it for its intended purpose (he has killed two NPC allies with it, one by 'accident' when he was in frenzy and another by 'greed' when he framed an npc ally and executed him for a fabricated crime. Finally, and the most recent battle he had was the sword was when in a rage he attacked an NPC 'ally' who was in disguise as a villain - he was instructed by another NPC ally (assassin guild leader/spy) not to kill the 'undercover operative' but ignoring orders and blinded by rage (he had a long lasting feud with the villain he was pretending to be). This last 'ally' was not liked by the PC and they were in opposing factions but through circumstance were working together to defeat a mutual enemy - the complication here was the PC did not know who he was at the time and thought he was attacking an enemy (the NPC he attacked was an undercover elite city guard/the PC has been working for a criminal organisation who was being hunted by the city guard so NOT at all heroic in purpose).

This to me seems the best way forward.
So options might include
1) the swords abilities 'shutting off'
2) the swords abilities corrupting the PC (the sword turning evil and causing a drawback to trigger)
3) the true owner of the sword somehow being 'alerted' to the misuse of the heroic sword and sending an emissary/messenger to demand its recall or even its destruction (PC could undertake a heroic quest to prove he is worthy and swear to use the sword only for heroic deeds or its magic is lost forever)
4) the sword itself might be sentient /intelligent and seek to change the PCs outlook/alignment and 'freeze' in place when it is used again for non-heroic deeds.

thoughts?

I like the idea of relatives of the swords victims seeking out the PC for revenge also, this might be a long list but importantly he may have slain someone important which has triggered relatives/henchmen/a brother/bounty hunters to seek him out.

[Druss_the_Legend]

Finally, and the most recent battle he had was the sword was when in a rage he attacked an NPC 'ally' who was in disguise as a villain...

This 'enemy' was blinded when the PC attacked him... more non-heroic use of the sword. He is a barbarian, not a paladin but even then attacking a blinded enemy, even a hated enemy in a frenzied rage is questionable heroic activity eh?

Actually the sword was taken from the PC by a city guard when he was captured and put in the city dungeon and then later found its way into the hands of a merchant who. When the PC recovered it, there was an extra ability on the sword which enhanced his frenzy bonus by +10.
This could be explained by...
1) the shifting alignment/corruption of the sword
2) one of its previous owners further enchanted the sword/unlocked a new ability
3) the swords abilities are still emerging and the number of people killed by the sword (or the way they were killed) has changed the swords purpose (from good to evil)

[Jengada]

Personally, I lean heavily towards the category under Cory's #3 earlier, it's drawing attention. But my first thought then is whether the sword's abilities are apparent in a way that others will be able to tell whether it's the sword or the wielder that is so notable. If the sword is known, or glows, for example, then others will hunt the sword. If no, then maybe the character is now considered a challenge and a target.
Either way, it can lead to other adventurers (or victims' families, or the church, or...anyone) coming after the party. When they are coming at the party knowing the character's abilities, they would come prepared - Charm, as someone suggested, or other spells (do they want to be lethal?), missile weapons they can use before the character closes with the sword, fighters who excel in disarming, and someone who can then teleport the sword away, or layers of distraction or deception and the sword is lifted by a thief. Any of those will allow the loss of the sword, temporary or permanent. Be prepared for the player to turn this into their life-goal, though, and have a recovery adventure ready.

If you truly want it gone, avoid anything that will specifically target the weapon, if at all possible. That becomes too personal, to a player, as others have said. An opponent or situation that does jeopardize all weapons or items equally, and doesn't care if they're enchanted, is more balanced and objective to the player. I've had fights on ships, with unstable footing and wet decks. Anything dropped has a high chance of going overboard. And a sword in the ocean on the high seas is either gone for eons, or another great plot line for an adventure. How well does the barbarian swim? Would he let a mage enchant him to act underwater? What kind of being found the sword and can effectively wield it down in the deeps?

[Druss_the_Legend]

Personally, I lean heavily towards the category under Cory's #3 earlier, it's drawing attention. But my first thought then is whether the sword's abilities are apparent in a way that others will be able to tell whether it's the sword or the wielder that is so notable. If the sword is known, or glows, for example, then others will hunt the sword. If no, then maybe the character is now considered a challenge and a target.
Either way, it can lead to other adventurers (or victims' families, or the church, or...anyone) coming after the party. When they are coming at the party knowing the character's abilities, they would come prepared - Charm, as someone suggested, or other spells (do they want to be lethal?), missile weapons they can use before the character closes with the sword, fighters who excel in disarming, and someone who can then teleport the sword away, or layers of distraction or deception and the sword is lifted by a thief. Any of those will allow the loss of the sword, temporary or permanent. Be prepared for the player to turn this into their life-goal, though, and have a recovery adventure ready.

If you truly want it gone, avoid anything that will specifically target the weapon, if at all possible. That becomes too personal, to a player, as others have said. An opponent or situation that does jeopardize all weapons or items equally, and doesn't care if they're enchanted, is more balanced and objective to the player. I've had fights on ships, with unstable footing and wet decks. Anything dropped has a high chance of going overboard. And a sword in the ocean on the high seas is either gone for eons, or another great plot line for an adventure. How well does the barbarian swim? Would he let a mage enchant him to act underwater? What kind of being found the sword and can effectively wield it down in the deeps?

the swords abilities are not obvious. it is a Whispering Sword from C&C, a short sword that hits for 2H sword damage. its only really an issue when he is frenzied but he can use adrenal move speed also. that damage is massive when it is doubled because we use the super fast combat rules and the weapon damage increases slightly as the fighters skill does.
so from a casual observer it would appear it is the combat prowess of the character and not the sword.

he doesnt swim so well so a ship adventure could def get the sword removed from the game, as you say until he finds a way to recover it and yes it will become his characters life goal. a battle with a creature from another plane or dimension could also fit the bill as the power of the enemies the entire party will face is increasing.

the main protagonist in the story is a magician who has many powerful allies, including assassins and henchmen and on occasion undead. Might be interesting if the sword was coveted by the guild leader assassin or the magician requested the owner and the sword be dealt with. probably requires the capture of the barbarian to pull off since the weapons powers are not immediately obvious until someone swings the sword themselves.

[Spectre771]

This to me seems the best way forward.
So options might include
1) the swords abilities 'shutting off'
2) the swords abilities corrupting the PC (the sword turning evil and causing a drawback to trigger)
3) the true owner of the sword somehow being 'alerted' to the misuse of the heroic sword and sending an emissary/messenger to demand its recall or even its destruction (PC could undertake a heroic quest to prove he is worthy and swear to use the sword only for heroic deeds or its magic is lost forever)
4) the sword itself might be sentient /intelligent and seek to change the PCs outlook/alignment and 'freeze' in place when it is used again for non-heroic deeds.

thoughts?

I like the idea of relatives of the swords victims seeking out the PC for revenge also, this might be a long list but importantly he may have slain someone important which has triggered relatives/henchmen/a brother/bounty hunters to seek him out.

"1) the swords abilities 'shutting off'"

I *LOVE* this idea!  The sword needs to be recharged or allowed to rest for some long period of time.  Not knowing the creator of the sword or the swrd's entire history, the PC would never know that it needs to be allowed 'down time' or to be bathed in the blood of a unicorn once a year to maintain its magical properties.

"2) the swords abilities corrupting the PC (the sword turning evil and causing a drawback to trigger)"

This is equally awesome.  The PC would have no idea at all that the sword is cursed/corrupt if the effect is very subtle or slow acting.  Have the PC make a RR each session but tell tell him why.  Keep a tally.  Maybe the PC's greed increases, or he blurs the lines a little too easily now, or the urge to kill seems to always outweigh the option of negotiation.

[jdale]

Actually the sword was taken from the PC by a city guard when he was captured and put in the city dungeon and then later found its way into the hands of a merchant who. When the PC recovered it, there was an extra ability on the sword which enhanced his frenzy bonus by +10.

Just off the cuff, I'd be inclined to keep boosting that bonus higher and higher. The item becomes more powerful.

But only for going into a frenzy. It would become a penalty for getting out of it, or distinguishing allies while in a frenzied state.