Topic: How much plot information do you give your players?

[Druss_the_Legend]

How much plot information do you give your players?

• This is more about your GM style and there is no right or wrong.
  It is important that your players are engaged in the plot and know what their goal/object is.
  How you get them to this point varies.
  
  You also rely on your players to be reactive to things that happen and give them some leeway to drive the story as well. Sometimes railroading them in a certain direction is helpful too, as long as this isnt your default setting and the players get some choices, even later on in the story I dont see anything wrong with guidance if it helps the story unfold.
  
  I have used maps, riddles, rumours and intel from NPCs to guide my players. Even then some of them are just lost at times which is where you need to feed them more information and its ok to make it obvious. Its awesome when they make the connections themselves and come up with the correct answers to clues but as GM you need to be reactive as well and bounce off your players choices sometimes. Its less about how they get there and just important they GET there when it comes to figuring out plot and plot twists. The old 'Always keep your players guessing' approach sometimes needs to be balanced with 'Let your players drive the story'.
  
  I run an off the shelf setting but have heavily modified it with my own sub-maps, new NPCs and plot (over arching main plot and many sub plots). Its lots more work tin terms of planning but Im starting to be more reactive to the players and am flexible with where they want to go next (within reason). Its really about trust. You need to trust your players are going to stay in character and drive the plot (and its often in expected ways). Rule#1 The GM has the final say Rule#2 Your players will be unpredictable. Yes Rule#0 Have fun should be always your goal - the trick is finding what your players want and include some of that in the game for them.

So back on topic, I give them a little more information if they are floundering and just enough information to ensure they know what their goal is. If the players decide they want to pursue a different goal or find a way to reach the goal that your didnt expect, roll with it.

Current party goals (in no particular order):
1) get safely back to their base of operations without getting killed by assassins (The bad guy has set a trap and they are about to get a nasty surprise)
2) rescue an important NPC from an evil blood cult before she is killed
3) appraise recent magic items acquired in last mission and divide up between the party
4) Rendezvous with powerful NPC high priestess and be given a new quest (she has charmed 2 of the 4 party PCs)
5) Investigate some strange goings on in a known dangerous location
6) Solve the mystery of the governor's recent disappearance (they suspect he has been killed and replaced by the evil cult)
7) Crush an emerging evil cult that is threatening to evil cult stuff and take control of the city (see goal 2)

[jdale]

One of my campaigns is pretty railroaded. There are tasks they were assigned. They did come up with some side things (visit the oracle, acquire some antiquities and sell them) but I have kept them basically on track and they are fine with that. Although the running joke is that their main patron is actually the bad guy. But in terms of information, they have what they have acquired, what they've learned from items, what they've been told by inscrutable entities, etc, and it's starting to add up to an actual story. When they finish this phase of the campaign, they have been asked by ghouls (which are sort of corrupted sprites here) to deal with another problem that will take a while, and then after that I have no idea what will follow (or if that will be the end of the campaign).

My other campaign is pretty much sandboxed. There are three major towns each controlling about 10 villages which are infested with a number of cults they have to deal with, and I left it to the party to decide what order and how to deal with things. They can pick up clues in one village about another (although they usually don't). One region ended up being the starter zone (which they were officially tasked with), and they have added a second, while they haven't done anything with the third (I guess it's high level DLC now!). They have quite a list of loose ends they may or may not get back to, but there are also villages they've done a good job of cleaning up. There's also town politics they aren't really interested in, although the important people sometimes tell them things. They have gotten some informants and there are also some prisoners they've arrested that they go back and chat with from time to time, so that's an interesting angle. Although it's sandbox, I still have to fill in gaps especially when things go weird, e.g. they got captured by wraith cultists so the wraiths threw them in a dungeon that I hadn't originally planned.

[Druss_the_Legend]

One of my campaigns is pretty railroaded. There are tasks they were assigned. They did come up with some side things (visit the oracle, acquire some antiquities and sell them) but I have kept them basically on track and they are fine with that. Although the running joke is that their main patron is actually the bad guy. But in terms of information, they have what they have acquired, what they've learned from items, what they've been told by inscrutable entities, etc, and it's starting to add up to an actual story. When they finish this phase of the campaign, they have been asked by ghouls (which are sort of corrupted sprites here) to deal with another problem that will take a while, and then after that I have no idea what will follow (or if that will be the end of the campaign).

My other campaign is pretty much sandboxed. There are three major towns each controlling about 10 villages which are infested with a number of cults they have to deal with, and I left it to the party to decide what order and how to deal with things. They can pick up clues in one village about another (although they usually don't). One region ended up being the starter zone (which they were officially tasked with), and they have added a second, while they haven't done anything with the third (I guess it's high level DLC now!). They have quite a list of loose ends they may or may not get back to, but there are also villages they've done a good job of cleaning up. There's also town politics they aren't really interested in, although the important people sometimes tell them things. They have gotten some informants and there are also some prisoners they've arrested that they go back and chat with from time to time, so that's an interesting angle. Although it's sandbox, I still have to fill in gaps especially when things go weird, e.g. they got captured by wraith cultists so the wraiths threw them in a dungeon that I hadn't originally planned.

sounds pretty cool. The sandbox campaign you mention here is quite similar to mine. Adventures and NPCS/factions/allies/enemies all happen within the city itself, its surrounding countryside (about 10 miles in all directions) and the sewers/underground areas below the city. It sounds narrow with few opportunities for adventure but its actually been running for many sessions spanning 35 years of real time (started in high school), had a break when we all went to uni/work etc and picked it up again about 6yrs ago so in terms on actually playing its been about 8 years of gaming and we are still rolling along and the players seem still excited to play each time we pick it up which is for a few months each year or so.

I feel its worked and kept the players engaged because the city and its ppl have changed and the protagonists have also developed. Iv added new factions and guilds and rivalries between them and some opposing forces of good and evil both in the city itself and as part of the larger plot.

What started off as a series of small off-the-shelf adventures has developed into a home-brew world with all manner of rivals and politics and colorful NPCS. One example is the parties previous boss Jubal - who was a crime-lord motivated by wealth who was the leader of an underworld type group of fighters, rogues and thieves. A hard task master who ruled mostly by fear he began as an ally and then became an enemy who was himself defeated by a rival crimelord. Jubal was a fantastic villain - he and his henchmen (called Hawkmasks) were running much of the crime in the city until he was betrayed by his rival. Jubal was captured, tortured, freed by the party, ambushed, thought dead, resurfaced as a prisoner in the city dungeon, paraded before the masses and then executed in a one-side gladiator type combat. The Pcs were either working with Jubal as his ally or employed as one of his sell-sword mercenary hawkmaks. When Jubal was betrayed his hawkmasks were hunted down and virtually all wiped out. The handful that survived including two players disbanded and went into hiding. When Jubal was bought to 'justice' for his many crimes the players were quite torn as to whether to rescue him (again) or not. At that time they owed him a large amount of gold and so decided to leave him to his fate. His final battle was epic. Jubal's death was largely predetermined as the ruling authorities gave him a trial by combat and heavily stacked the odds against him (he was badly wounded from torture for his final battle and his opponent wore magical armour).

We are poised to reboot for another season later this year. The sandbox setup allows for reuse of many locations and maps with the occasional need for making a new enemy lair or underground area as the party explore about the city on various missions to locate and rescue allies or foil the enemies plans such as the assassins guild (Black Lotus), the bloodthirsty cult (Bloody Hand), one of the two rival magicians guild or the thieves guild (Big Fish Gang). The party have sensibly sided with a lawful magicians guild (Order of the Blue Star) and battle-weary group of monks (Follower's of Heqt) and an off-shoot assassins guild led by a former member of the Black Lotus. Despite the support of these allies the city has fallen under the control of the cultists and things are looking grimm with the orince of the city going missing and rumours of the cultists resurrecting vampires and creating werewolves.

[intothatdarkness]

If you do solid character backgrounding and something like a "session zero" that has been discussed elsewhere, my experience has been players will stay pretty engaged even in a more sandboxed game because they understand the setting and have a feel for where they fit into it. For my sandbox games I usually have a number of options available for players, but if there's a bigger plot lurking in the background I design most of those options so they connect to that plot in some way. Like the OP, I also have the world moving along with the characters, so the situations and people they encounter change as things move along. Quite often I start working up new adventures or options while one is already going, so I can incorporate what the players have done and where they're going into things. Having a well-developed setting helps quite a bit with this, and it sounds like you have a really good one, Druss.

With my non-fantasy stuff, adventures are usually assigned missions...the players know the desired end state (steal the plans, detain a subject, etc.), but they don't know how they're going to get there. In games like that you sometimes do have to work a bit harder to keep them on script for some missions and make some plot information more available than you might otherwise (like if they happen to miss something important or botch a surveillance task that should have been relatively easy), but that's usually just adjusting the plot a bit. Of course, sometimes they do just fail...and you have to allow them to do that. I run one of my espionage games in a home-brew city, and the options you have there are really very broad. The only thing narrow about those settings in my experience is the imagination of some GMs or players.

[MisterK]

I base my information-giving on a very simple question: do I want the characters to know something ?

If the answer is yes, then it's my job to give them the information in a believable way. Depending on how I give them the information, it can be reliable or questionable, which is important for reverse engineering.
If the answer is no, then this is a possible information - I can infer things from it, but as long as the characters don't know it, it is neither true nor false.
If the answer is "maybe", then it's my job to make the information available (it might not be trivial to get it). If they get it, it becomes true. If they don't, it is still Schroedinger's data.

I also tend to have multiple "world plots" going on at the same time and not necessarily related. The campaign might also have multiple campaign plots ongoing. As a result, I give much information, and tend to use the "cloud of bats" technique - the characters have a wealth of data, but they don't know if everything is relevant to what they want to do *now*, if the data is relevant to a plot they are following, and if the data is reliable.

[Druss_the_Legend]

EDIT.
You need to trust your players are going to stay in character and drive the plot (and its often in UNEXPECTED ways).

[Druss_the_Legend]

some great posts here. thanks for the input thus far. rpgs are collaborative and its clear to see that ppl understand the importance of player engagement and giving their characters ways to impact the story.

some good guiding principles r starting to emerge here for giving ur players the information they need to help them drive the story.
linking the main plot to at least one PC is useful.
if you run pre-game 1v1 adventures for your players i have use a single NPC who has full knowledge of the setting as a tool to intro new players to the setting, using him as a guide and a sou ding board for questions about the setting, its politics and general info about important NPCS.
i also try to give each PC at least one NPC contact who has a job in the city that might be useful for them once the game is underway - could be an urchin, a blacksmith, brothel owner etc. This npc is a good source of rumours/info and will have connections with more important ppl in the setting.

[Druss_the_Legend]

I use the streetwise skill as a guide for the number of contacts they have in the setting.

[MisterK]

I use the streetwise skill as a guide for the number of contacts they have in the setting.

This would only be a useful skill for "street" level contacts. You could also use Administration, Etiquette, Trade, and a few others.

[intothatdarkness]

I use the streetwise skill as a guide for the number of contacts they have in the setting.

This would only be a useful skill for "street" level contacts. You could also use Administration, Etiquette, Trade, and a few others.

Dress may be using streetwise as shorthand for understanding how cities work and which palms to grease (or arms to twist) if you need something. Given RM's huge swath of skills (and the fact that many don't use all of them), each game can be radically different from another.

In my espionage games I usually award XPs to players who develop useful contacts. It's also part of their job description (most agencies evaluate field operatives based on how many useful contacts they recruit), so there's an incentive on a couple of levels. Some game systems also "award" contacts based on level (Gangbusters did this, I think, and there are others as well). If contacts are going to be an important part of the game, you need to have some sort of mechanism (or mechanisms) for creating them.

[Druss_the_Legend]

good discussion about contacts. I rule one skill rank equals one new contact. Id say these types of skills go mostly overlooked in games. a good source of role-play too.

[Ruffie]

I usually place key points of the adventure in a certain chain of quests. Once they reach the next point (sometimes with help, sometimes on their own) they are free to roam the city, dungeon, forest etc. I make sure there are plot hooks, complete standalone advenntures and dead ends at the location. Te plot moves forward with or without my players. They have influence on that of course but if the enemy army is going to attack the city one way or another. The difference lies within the actions of the players. Perhaps they have discovered the plot of the army and the city is prepared, perhaps they aided the enemy by accident and the city falls quicker.

The average preparation for my adventures is about 40-60 pages of documentation per location. In my current adventure there are about 5-6 major locations which each hold significance to the grander plot which has been running close to 4 years now.

I present my players with a lot of information but it is placed out of context. They need to fill in the blanks and connect the dots.

[Druss_the_Legend]

I usually place key points of the adventure in a certain chain of quests. Once they reach the next point (sometimes with help, sometimes on their own) they are free to roam the city, dungeon, forest etc. I make sure there are plot hooks, complete standalone advenntures and dead ends at the location. Te plot moves forward with or without my players. They have influence on that of course but if the enemy army is going to attack the city one way or another. The difference lies within the actions of the players. Perhaps they have discovered the plot of the army and the city is prepared, perhaps they aided the enemy by accident and the city falls quicker.

The average preparation for my adventures is about 40-60 pages of documentation per location. In my current adventure there are about 5-6 major locations which each hold significance to the grander plot which has been running close to 4 years now.

I present my players with a lot of information but it is placed out of context. They need to fill in the blanks and connect the dots.

awesome! some gr8 guidelines here. i like the 5 key location concept. i might develop that and implement with current story which is currently based in. around and under one city.