Topic: Character development: A more complete fantasy experience

[Onirim]

Recently, I reading again fantasy books, like Lord of the Rings, Wheel of Time and The Belgariad. I think fantasy roleplaying-games can be capable of replicate this kind of fantasy novels, and I was thinking about character development.

In this kind of fantasy novels, the characters start at "low level", it's obvious. They are protected and guided by one or more high level character (and it's doable without problem), but in RM, the character starts with an adventuring profession, event at first level when the character is not an adventurer.

I consider using, for my next campaign, the Farmer profession (from RoCo III) for all the PC, and after their introduction to the world and the beginning of their adventures, they will meet some real adventurers who can help them to learn an adventuring profession. And at level 2 or 3, the PC can switch their farmer profession to a more adventuring profession (for this, I will just switch the skill costs, rearrange the new professional bonuses and... that's all).

What do you think about this? Have you already tried to do this?

[jdale]

We played a game of Mage in which the characters started out as children with no magic, at a school which was intended to prepare them for awakening. Half the players thought it was cool, half were frustrated by having no real abilities or competence. I think it can work but player expectations need to be set correctly, the GM will have to work to provide challenges that are achievable but still interesting, and you need to have room for the characters to be distinct and each have a way to contribute that is not overshadowed by some other player. Like movies with neophytes, you also need a way to get the skilled patrons out of the scene so the PCs are forced to do the work.

That said, if you look at the Belgariad, really every character started with a very clear profession and skills, except one. I think that's typical that stories do not spend that much time on developing every main character from nothing, the development arc is focused on just one or a few.

[RandalThor]

We played a game of Mage in which the characters started out as children with no magic, at a school which was intended to prepare them for awakening. Half the players thought it was cool, half were frustrated by having no real abilities or competence. I think it can work but player expectations need to be set correctly, the GM will have to work to provide challenges that are achievable but still interesting, and you need to have room for the characters to be distinct and each have a way to contribute that is not overshadowed by some other player. Like movies with neophytes, you also need a way to get the skilled patrons out of the scene so the PCs are forced to do the work.

The difference between these makes the comparison not work well, imo. Sure,  when talking about modern people most don't have "adventuring/combat" skills or abilities. But, the average farmer in the average fantasy setting will. So, they will not be as "useless" as the kids with no magical abilities of yet.

I think this is a totally doable thing, and something I have wanted to do myself. In the case of RM, I would definitely use the hobby ranks, culture tables, and adolescent development from RMFRP. Also, I would give them 3-5 levels in their "civilian" profession; you will likely discover than some of those skills will apply and be good for adventuring.

[pantsorama]

I get where you are coming from, but as I player, I would nope out.  At the very least give them more options than just farmer.

As it is 1st to 4th level Rolemaster is super deadly.  Being a farmer for 2 levels would make the campaign much less survivable.

Finally, are you going to expose all the characters to every class?  If not then can they pick a class they have never seen, let alone get training for?  Otherwise you are restricting the classes played somewhat arbitrarily.

You can manage this MUCH better by picking background options available at adolescence.

[Spectre771]

In RM2, I have made a Blacksmith from the Profession profession and a farmer from the No-Profession profession.   In that other roleplaying game that uses a single die with twice the numbers on it, I've made a Dwarf Wizard (he had 4HP) and I've made an investment banker type.  He was sent out by the bankers guild to find new markets in which to bring the banking guild's "very reasonable interest rates for loans and investments" to other regions.  As a result, he needed to travel with adventurers who could help protect him.  His specialty was gems so I gave him skill in 1H Hammer.

The Dwarf Wizard was tired of being pigeonholed and expected to do mining when all he really wanted to be was a lumberja.... errr.  wizard.
 
For the RM2 PCs, the Blacksmith was part of the entourage that travels with an adventuring party.  He was one of those behind-the-scenes characters that helps keep the party train going but never gets any credit.  The party was having a lot of interaction with him as an NPC so I turned him into a PC I could actually play and he worked out great.

The Non-profession Farmer was seeking revenge because his wife and family were killed and he was suddenly thrust into the world of adventuring.  As luck would have it, he was able to find a Bounty Hunter and an Assassin for hire at the local tavern!  What great luck for him (and the other two players sitting at the table with us that session)!

The difference between these makes the comparison not work well, imo. Sure,  when talking about modern people most don't have "adventuring/combat" skills or abilities. But, the average farmer in the average fantasy setting will. So, they will not be as "useless" as the kids with no magical abilities of yet.

The non-adventurer doesn't may not have what one would consider combat skills, but every day life in their chosen profession would be suitable for combat.  The Blacksmith I made had lots of ranks in 1H Hammer skill, high Con, and lots of Body Dev just by nature of his work.  He also had Hostile Environment - Heat, Smithing, Forging, Metal/Weapon/Armour Eval, Trading skills, etc.  All easily translatable into a life of adventure and a good jumping off point.

Also, the adventurers don't have to be kids with no magic skills.  My party had a level 1 spell user with two spell lists.... neither list had a level 1 spell to cast! LOL  He made do with other skills and his bow until he hit level 2.

[Vladimir]

  In the 1970s I gamed with a group of game designers who pushed the envelope on immersive RPG. All characters started with a base, civilian profession before they chose to be an adventurer. The starting profession was usually random but if the GM used a demographics model, about 90% of the starting characters would be tenant farmers, instead of smiths or merchants. One of the developers, who loved to make random charts ran a game where a player could start off with a family and children or in debt. The players found just generating characters as interesting as playing and the start of a new campaign usually drew a small audience of gamers. 
As a GM most of my recent players have no interest in starting out as low level noobs. In point-buy games I've had players eagerly take on drug addictions and mental problems just for more points to spend so they could enter the game as gods of the battlefield.
Now, I tailor my campaigns to match my players. If they are gods on the battlefield, I send gods to fight them.

[RandalThor]

The difference between these makes the comparison not work well, imo. Sure,  when talking about modern people most don't have "adventuring/combat" skills or abilities. But, the average farmer in the average fantasy setting will. So, they will not be as "useless" as the kids with no magical abilities of yet.

The non-adventurer doesn't may not have what one would consider combat skills, but every day life in their chosen profession would be suitable for combat.  The Blacksmith I made had lots of ranks in 1H Hammer skill, high Con, and lots of Body Dev just by nature of his work.  He also had Hostile Environment - Heat, Smithing, Forging, Metal/Weapon/Armour Eval, Trading skills, etc.  All easily translatable into a life of adventure and a good jumping off point.

Also, the adventurers don't have to be kids with no magic skills.  My party had a level 1 spell user with two spell lists.... neither list had a level 1 spell to cast! LOL  He made do with other skills and his bow until he hit level 2.

OK. I don't think you understood what I was saying. My fault, I wasn't clear enough.

The magic kids was referring to the Mage game mentioned by jdale. It is a modern game, set in the now; cellphones, cars, 9-to-5 work days, etc... I can understand that they might not have adventuring/combat skills.

The farmer, I spoke of, lives in a typical fantasy setting - one with a variety of non-human species, a variety of monsters, and stuff like that. My comment was about them having some adventuring/combat skills, because I don't think that all the monsters and stuff in the world leaves them alone just because they are in a village/town. (Especially since all of these villages are always so isolated and way "outside the bounds of civilization" and reside right next to the Forest of Death by The Worst Way Imaginable. ;-)  )

[jdale]

The magic kids was referring to the Mage game mentioned by jdale. It is a modern game, set in the now; cellphones, cars, 9-to-5 work days, etc... I can understand that they might not have adventuring/combat skills.

I probably should have noted that it was actually a fantasy setting, just one that appeared superficially non-magical. You're right that Mage is normally set in the modern era so this was a bit of a stretch for it. The setting had a local culture and a conquering culture that had recently taken over; the new power was selecting an apparently random sample of children to enroll in their school. I'm not sure how the game would have developed because, aside from the power level issue (too low for half the players), half the players decided to sympathize with the local culture and half decided to be loyal to the new power, which made it pretty hard to advance the plot.... In hindsight the GM should have given us some guidance to keep the party a little more unified.

My character, Zeke, 12 years old, was a bit of a troublemaker, always getting into mischief. He was raised by a single mother who was an herbalist. He had a tiny bit of martial arts and stickfighting, fast reflexes, subterfuge, and the ability to eat things other kids would say "eww" about. Other characters included the son of a disreputable traveling alchemist, the daughter of the horse master for a provincial governor, the son of a priestess of the local's religion (dad was a temple guard), an outdoorsy son of a hunter, and a child from a very divided family. All age 11-13.

[RandalThor]

I probably should have noted that it was actually a fantasy setting, just one that appeared superficially non-magical.

[Spectre771]

OK. I don't think you understood what I was saying. My fault, I wasn't clear enough.

The magic kids was referring to the Mage game mentioned by jdale. It is a modern game, set in the now; cellphones, cars, 9-to-5 work days, etc... I can understand that they might not have adventuring/combat skills.

Gotcha!  That makes things much more clearer now. LOL

[EltonJ]

Someone has been reading more Tolkien-esque books.

Starting them out as farmer boys and girls maybe a good idea.  And starting them out with the farmer profession maybe smart and that's what you want to do.  However, that isn't what Rolemaster was designed for.  In RM, professions are "hard wired."  Also, in Roleplaying games in general, everyone who is playing is playing a protagonist.

The GM plays the other roles.  And take it from me, you don't want to play multiple Guardians.

[Onirim]

Thank for your answers and advices

[pantsorama]

Take a peek at this thread:

https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=19445.msg240457

Using a Traveller-esque character generation tool will allow you to have more control over skills a 1st level character may have, and still give the players agency in making their characters,

Downside is it might be a lot of work.

[intothatdarkness]

I put together my own list of "basic training" skills for professions I allowed in my world, and it worked pretty well. It accounted for maybe half of a character's average DPs and made sure they had the basics (Body Development, Perception) while still leaving room for their own spin on a character. I also had cultural skills they got free of charge based on their origin (I use an origin table for my setting). By the time it was said and done a first level character might actually be the skill equivalent of second level, but they were usually non-combat skills that proved useful in play and that players (especially new ones) might not think of for their first character (it's always amazed me how many newcomers overlook Perception, for example).

Interesting that the Farmer was mentioned. I played one once...except he took a Josie Wales turn and ended up developing Frenzy and specializing in Pole Arms to get vengeance for his family who were killed by rogue knights. The skills weren't cheap to develop, but he was a fun character to play and ended up being pretty useful any time the party needed to deal with animals or deal with peasants.