Author Topic: Sparse notes on Population Density  (Read 1143 times)

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Offline The Chorned Jat

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Sparse notes on Population Density
« on: June 13, 2022, 10:32:17 PM »
5800 RMFRP Encounter Table T-5.1 under Note:
The "Population Density" categories... represent the relative density of social beings or inhabitants.
Population Density Categories here are: Dense, Moderate, Light, Sparse, Waste

5521 RMSS 17.3.2 Subsistence Patterns
a) Hunter/gatherer .05 to 10 people per square mile
b) Slash & burn agriculturalists 1 to 20 people per square mile
c) Herders 3 to 40 people per square mile
d) Fisherfolk .5 to 50 people per square mile
e) Mixed economies 10 to 100+ people per square mile

5542 RMSS Castles & Ruins 6
5.1 Hiring Contractors
Availability/Cost table uses Population Densities Dense, Moderate, and Sparce (which diverges from RMFRP, where Light is between Moderate and Sparce.

Moreover, this table (and the Labor Availability Chart in section 5.2) define some terminology for different acreage "bands":
Town: 1,250 acres
Region: 2,500 acres
Open City(5.1)/Small City(5.2): 12,500 acres
Large City: 25,000 acres
Territory: 125,000 acres
Province: 1,250,000 acres
Country: 12,500,000 acres

12.0 Taxes/Other Income
Uses acres as a determinant of "population size and average monthly income for the purposes of taxation". The acreage bands on the Population Size Chart and Monthly Income Chart correspond with some of the named areas in C&R 5.1 and 5.2

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Just putting this here in case anyone else is interested. Trying to collect info about population density. Anyone know if we have R. C. Kirkland Jr. on the boards here? Would love to ask some questions about Castles & Ruins!

Also: I am assuming that the Castles & Ruins PDF was a reprint of RMSS - that there was no attempt to "FRPize" it, that is.

Offline jdale

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Re: Sparse notes on Population Density
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2022, 11:57:44 PM »
This is a great starting point if you are thinking about those things: https://damnelfpress.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/medieval-demographics-made-easy.pdf
Or same thing here: https://gamingballistic.com///wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Medieval-Demographics-Made-Easy-1.pdf

I'm not aware of any differences between the RMSS/RMFRP printings of Castles & Ruins.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Sparse notes on Population Density
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2022, 12:58:49 PM »
This is a great starting point if you are thinking about those things: https://damnelfpress.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/medieval-demographics-made-easy.pdf
Or same thing here: https://gamingballistic.com///wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Medieval-Demographics-Made-Easy-1.pdf

I'm not aware of any differences between the RMSS/RMFRP printings of Castles & Ruins.

An article that comments, criticises, and complements the above reference : https://medium.com/migration-issues/notes-on-medieval-population-geography-fd062449364f

As a comparison, the wikipedia page gives interesting values for the various provinces of the roman empire (so, pre-medieval, but another classic trope of fantasy worlds): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Roman_Empire. The values are given in inhabitants/square kilometre, not per square mile, so be careful about your units :)

Offline Hurin

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Re: Sparse notes on Population Density
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2022, 02:33:28 PM »

An article that comments, criticises, and complements the above reference : https://medium.com/migration-issues/notes-on-medieval-population-geography-fd062449364f


That's an interesting read. He seems a bit argumentative and dismissive, and his background is not really in the medieval period (he seems to dismiss the high medieval urban commune and thinks more in terms of late Middle Ages than high or early), but I agree with his central criticism that medieval population densities were generally lower than the original article he critiques.
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Offline The Chorned Jat

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Re: Sparse notes on Population Density
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2022, 04:52:53 PM »
(Note: I did not realize we can't edit our posts after the fact! I put the first post up thinking I would be able to update it and gather things into one location - oops!)

I have read those resources before and I do like them, but I'm less interested in numbers from the real world than I am working out what "a Rolemaster world" would look like based on the figures and processes from the books more than historical example (not that that subject isn't fascinating, just outside of the scope here :) )

Offline pastaav

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Re: Sparse notes on Population Density
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2022, 05:00:22 PM »
My take is that his objections to population density numbers pretty much ignore the impact of magic healing. In worlds with very limited magic, the number of people will be fewer.

For roleplaying games like RM and Harp the society should be much more resilient and bound by the medieval agriculture output during good times rather than the misery of the real middle ages in our world where things like the plague determined how society did grow.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Sparse notes on Population Density
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2022, 08:29:46 PM »
You need a starting point as a baseline which you can then modify based on magic and other factors. The real world is good as that starting point.

Healing is more prevalent in a fantasy world, but how much it helps with disease is very setting-dependent. You could easily have a setting where the nobles and wealthy merchants aren't going to die of the plague, but everyone else will at real-world rates. (A setting where no one dies of disease is also possible, at the other end of the scale.) Also, most fantasy worlds have considerably higher levels of danger with undead, reavers of various types, etc. So I don't know that the net adjustment should be upwards.

I do think it's reasonable to have fewer small indefensible villages in a setting where most of them will be destroyed by wandering monsters. And that means larger villages, probably more people in towns, possibly more people in cities (depending on the ability to supply them with food).

Healing seems important but you might get more bang for your power points by casting spells like Speed Growth II (10x plant growth rate for 1 day in a 100'R). Blessed Fertility on Sacred Land in RMU Treasure Law gives +50% harvests in a consecrated area (which could be large).

As for the critique, S. John Ross wrote:
Quote
Some Historical Comparisons: Medieval France tops the list, with a 14th-century density just upwards of 100 people/sq. mile. The French were blessed with an abundance of arable countryside, waiting to be farmed. Modern France has more than twice this many people. Germany, with a slightly less perfect climate and a lower percentage of arable land, averaged more like 90 people/sq. mile. Italy was similar (lots of hills and rocky areas). The British Isles were the least populous, with a little more than 40 people per square mile, most of them clustered in the southern half of the isles.

Lyman Stone agrees about 14th century France. And "By 1450, max densities range from 110 in Belgium to 90 in Italy to 74 in Germany." So basically the difference seems just to be that S. John Ross has chosen a later period and Lyman Stone has chosen an earlier one. It's not that one is right and the other is wrong, it's just that they are trying to model entirely different things, and you should pick which is more appropriate for your setting. That's pretty much true throughout what he wrote, he's dismissing later things everywhere, e.g. Italian mercenaries, simply because they are later period. So if the later period is a better match for your setting, you can just read the parts he calls abnormal and use them.

I also think Lyman Stone is a bit off about dismissing the number of villages just because they are too many to name. Who cares? You don't need a name for every single village any more than you need a name for every single person. You name the ones that matter.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Sparse notes on Population Density
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2022, 09:51:29 PM »
Yes, agreed about the villages; just name the ones that matter.

I'm not so sure the issue of population densities is a one of Ross choosing an earlier period and Stone choosing a later one. Stone gives better numbers here, and argues that in general Ross's numbers (in the range of 30 to 120) are far too high. I think Stone is right.
          Ross's numbers of 110 for 14th century France seems extremely high, and Stone notes that an estimate of 36 would be more reasonable. The difference between 110 and 36 is significant.
          Why Ross says France was the highest is not quite clear to me: Belgium should be higher (indeed is the highest in Stone's estimation) since it was heavily urbanized (far more heavily than France as a whole) and doesn't have the mountains or waste areas that France as a whole has, which would further bring France's numbers down.
          Note also that Stone's estimates for countries such as Scotland and Norway are in the single digits.
          Also, note that densities should go down, not up, in the later period -- namely after the Black Death (c. 1350). Population in the countries did not recover from that for at least a century or two (local areas and some cities bounced back faster).
           
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle