Author Topic: Dealing with Unlife Corruption  (Read 3245 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2021, 07:57:43 PM »
Thanks,
I was commenting more on the thoughts that rule seems to be that if you allow evil spell lists you ask the player to roleplay some negative aspects and how often parents may not want their kids to play games that have such rules.
I seem to remember in the past when this came up I mentioned that often games have mature supplements that deal with such matter, as well as the comment that there are time younger customers get their hands on the books then what the authors intended.
MDC   
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline rdanhenry

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,567
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • This sentence is false.
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2021, 09:08:51 PM »

I also remember recently rdanhenry describing his RMU game or a RMU game in which all open and closed lists were in a big pool and their was only a central spell casting mod list and it did not vary by realm (past RM).

I recall that as well, except that the poster wasn't me.
Rolemaster: When you absolutely, positively need to have a chance of tripping over an imaginary dead turtle.

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,101
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2021, 10:24:11 PM »
I was commenting more on the thoughts that rule seems to be that if you allow evil spell lists you ask the player to roleplay some negative aspects and how often parents may not want their kids to play games that have such rules.

If you don't want your PCs to act evil, you shouldn't give them access to evil spell lists. Simple as that. I agree it's not for everyone.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Eladan

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 114
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2021, 05:24:26 AM »
Although it has been mentioned, the corruption point idea is what I was going to suggest. I didn’t realize that there were mentions of them in RMSS, but the MERP 2.0 books have some good details on them as well. IIRC, not only do they apply as a cumulative penalty against RR’s vs evil spells and control by evil entities, but the Spell Risk rules from MERP could be used as well, with evil spell usage attracting unwanted attention from those very entities. If you don’t have access to that book, let me know and I’ll dig it out of the closet and get some specifics. I too never had any good mechanics for “controlling” evil spell usage so I love that your exploring this concept.
"And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest."

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2021, 08:59:39 AM »
That's a great suggestion Eladan. I did not know about the MERP rules (or had forgotten since I haven't played MERP since the mid-80s). I am assuming the RMSS rules were based on the MERP ones? Or did they originate from one of the RM2 Companions?

Does anyone remember if there is anything about corruption in the companions?
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,101
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2021, 10:33:10 AM »
I don't know where they first appeared, but the corruption point and spell use risk optional rules appear in RMSR pp294-295. There are some expanded spell use risk tables in School of Hard Knocks. I'm not sure about where they are in RMFRP.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2021, 02:33:56 PM »

I also remember recently rdanhenry describing his RMU game or a RMU game in which all open and closed lists were in a big pool and their was only a central spell casting mod list and it did not vary by realm (past RM).

I recall that as well, except that the poster wasn't me.

Sorry about that the one in the last 6 months I thought was you the two cases from way back (before 2010 IIRC were other people).
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2021, 02:55:30 PM »
Personal Experience with StarFinder (SF) game and nephews:
When SF came out I had a copy and my nephews were asking about it and had some questions, I posted their question under my name and got a less then helpful and professional response on the Paizo Forums (which also served as good example for them at that age). It made them not want to play the game and the older still has not played pen and pager games to this day.
My brother-in-law asked if that was standard forum behavior and I said it can be but not all forums are the same. I am fairly sure he talked to his kids about it and is a reason the have not been more involved in pen and paper games.

Game Reviews for Content:
In the past I have been asked many times if I new a good review site for rpg and or computer games for content, which I do not and sort of prefer not to be held responsible if a site has a shift in content standards, ie today this is fine and tomorrow there is a huge shift in another direction).
But I know a lot of parents screen the things their kids do and or are doing for reviews and information. And quite a few times have removed that activity do to content.

What I can see about this rule:
Parent 1 does not know a lot about RMU (P1): I had to stop my kid from playing RMU because to cast spells you have to act out negative personal traits.
Parent 2 knows more about game (P2): No you to cast evil spells your character has to act out negative social traits, normal spells do not have that condition.
P1: Well I have seen a change in my kids behavior as he likes to make the best possible character, so are evil spell lists more powerful then other spell lists? 
P2: Yes they can be.
P1: So to be better you have to act out negative social things.

I can see the argument (and have had it with others in this type of discussion) in that killing monsters is much more problematic then "negative social traits" but I have also had people say that they have seen problematic changes in their kids behavior do to things on TV (cartoons, TV shows, computer games, social forums, etc) and had to remove that and other activities from their kids lives.

So quite simply, why have a rule that makes it easy for parents to not let them play RMU because they might have to act out (roleplay) negative social traits?

Again I want to state that every parent, GM and group have different tolerances for many game concepts and I have seen quite often a parent info site provide a review of a game that brought up a negative game aspect (even if small) and thus a parent not let their kids play the game. Quite simply they already have a lot to deal with and they do not want to run the chance of having to deal with anything more (ie they do not need any more on their plate with their kids).

Does that make sense?
MDC     
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2021, 04:41:45 PM »
I understand what you're saying Mark. I think that is why I prefer a more number-based solution (rather than the roleplay-based solution) that imposes penalties and vulnerabilities rather than encouraging players to act out negative traits.

Thanks JDale for the information about how RMSS and RMFRP handled this. I really like the title of the FRP chart, 'Distributed Evil Risk Chart' :)

I like the idea of tracking the Powerpoints the character has used on evil spells, possibly giving him an RR at certain thresholds to see if he has suffered any 'corruption'. That will then be a penalty to his RRs versus control spells from Evil lists. And once he crosses a higher level of corruption, he'll start to attract the attention of Evil forces, who will seek him out to recruit him for their Evil plans.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2021, 05:27:39 PM »
Personal Experience:
I have also experienced mature game rules that allow for fairly standard bad behavior and game store owners discussing with me and others on a way to handle problem issues and customers. In both of those areas around the same time they decided to have a store owners registry of common issues and problems and the solutions they have taken. So an extreme example if you steal in one store you can get banned in all stores in the area.
One of the issues was game rules, setting or players game style in which they said they could in game steal from other players and more problem issues of intimidating/insulting/other bad behavior players through character on character interaction. Some groups have no issues with it but in these retail settings and some home games it was a huge issue.
Some of the issues go so bad it caused the store to lose customers and close down.

If you want more info on the people in the past, I can say that a lot of them will not buy RMU anyway but I also know and have been asked by quite a few others in the last 4 years or so how and where to check is a game/book/software/etc many have issues and if I think an issue might be a problem for them.
It is much easier to just have an adult or mature themed book and bypass the issue directly before it can be a problem. And it is always harder to get people to try something after they have head of potential problems even if there is no problem to be gain with or the problem is one that would not affect their kids.

MDC     
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2021, 05:32:29 PM »
I started a new post as I thought I might time out,

An extreme example:
I know quite a few game groups that might not have a problem with requiring a player to drink a bear or have 1 shot of hard alcohol for every 25 points of damage they take or do, but those are adult gamers who like to drink a lot when they often play a little.
If you had that rule in your game or as an option I can easily see parents have issues even if you say younger players need to substitute water, milk or soda for alcohol.
I chose the above example to try and make it very easy to see issues and often problems can occur when rules are in a much more gray area.

MDC     
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2021, 05:48:56 PM »
Sorry had to take care of something real quick,

If you point is that is other games there are rules like that I agree but most of the ones I have seen are in what people would call mature audience games and from what I remember of RMU B1/B2 they wanted to get kids as young as 10+ to play and grow the game base.
Often a note of the cover of games of mature themes or if they ask a salesperson about that in a game it can make the difference in if the game is sold or not. Just as if I and or others want to play a more mature game I tend to look for that comment or look for info that says it is not for 10-14 year old's.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2021, 05:31:59 PM »
Note: I am not the person for the job below.

Thinking a bit more on this issue in general it might be a good idea to have someone or ones not associated with the product and is tied in to what parents of your various age groups are looking at today as guidelines for PnP RPG's and or computer games.   
Why? I remember around here parents having issues with video game avatar gen and filterers and not violence and gore for not buying games.

Again I am not the person or know people for this task right now.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,101
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2021, 06:55:28 PM »
The part I quoted from RMU Spell Law is in the section about customizing your game. It's very open-ended and you would have to decide on your own rules for it. If we're worried about the impressions people will make with optional rules, personally I think it's better to have an optional rule that says for evil lists you need to be a terrible person, rather than simply opening things up and saying anyone can harness the power of evil without any personal cost whatsoever. Evil as self-destructive is a good thing. Evil without consequences is the wrong message.

Beyond that, these are house rules. I might make suggestions but ultimately everyone is going to decide how to run their own game. They don't need permission for that.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2021, 12:45:37 PM »
JDale
I read the snipit that you provided above, quickly and with other distractions. So I admit I do not have a lot of context and I would guess that the info is about 1/4 to 1/2 a page out of 900-2000 total pages (a guess on my part as I have not looked at the rules).
But in general that is enough to have some parents not buy they game, the more things like this in the total rule set the easier it is for parents to say no to the game and harder for the publisher to sell it.

In general things you should look at and unfortunately what is ok can change very quickly.
1) Writing Style
2) Concepts and rules 
3) Art
4) Lately I have even seen publishers and or authors, ie they put out this product that I did not like for some reason so I will not like anything they ever do again.
5) One thing I have had trouble with at times is artful text. By that I mean text in the doc uses some unique font or that is included into artwork and that can make it harder to read.

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline netbat

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 255
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2021, 06:36:12 PM »
Back to the OP, in addition to the corruption rules in RMSS mentioned by jdale, there are some good rules for corruption and divine grace in the RMSS ChannelingCompanion and a lot of good shadow world specific corruption rules for the unlife by cormac doyle in guild companion articles from 2000 june, july, and august.
While the additional risk factor charts in SoHK are great and I love using them, they are not really applicable to the unlife and corruption in my opinion.
There is no frigate like a book to take us lands away -
                                                   Emily Dickenson

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2021, 09:22:48 PM »
Thanks Netbat. Those were some good references.

I still like the idea of tracking corruption points for PP spent on Evil lists, and then applying that as a modifier to control from Evil casters, but those articles were great knowledge bombs to give to my players about the nature of the Unlife and the Undead. I also like the physical manifestations of the corruption that they suggest, like headaches and things like that. I just don't like the idea of starting to penalize players SCRs (Spell Casting Roles) when they start to get corrupted -- that will pretty quickly make the character less viable.

But anyway, that gave me a lot of food for thought. Thanks!
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline netbat

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 255
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2021, 06:47:31 PM »
If you really wanted to be evil to the player/character you could give the player the option of no scr if they use unlife to power the spell(with the increased corruption from using the unlife). The constant temptation of no penalties in exchange for increasing corruption...
You might also want to try making the character roll against their corruption to avoid using the unlife to power the spell in lieu of the scr. That may be a more useful option - fail the rr and gain more corruption.

you would have to have players capable of dealing with the issues of falling to evil and aware of the possibility the party may have to turn against the character when he was too corrupted.
There is no frigate like a book to take us lands away -
                                                   Emily Dickenson

Offline PiXeL01

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 631
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Seeing things from the top of Mt. Fuji
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2021, 08:56:27 AM »
Another thing you could do, though it becomes random is to use the rules casting Foul Changes in Companion IV which would erode your physical appearance, slowly turning into a demon or other hideous creature.

Or you could simply use each lvl of the level cast as a % for a roll on the Chaotic Gift table in Companion III.

Again these are random effects
PiXeL01 - RM2/RMC Fanboy

I think violence in games only causes violence in real life if the person in question has an insufficient mental capacity to deal with the real world in the first place. But, that's more the fault of poor genetics and poorer parenting than it is the fault of a videogame

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2021, 10:23:59 AM »
Another thing you could do, though it becomes random is to use the rules casting Foul Changes in Companion IV which would erode your physical appearance, slowly turning into a demon or other hideous creature.

Or you could simply use each lvl of the level cast as a % for a roll on the Chaotic Gift table in Companion III.


Great ideas! I think I will use those in addition to the other things I mentioned.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle