Author Topic: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?  (Read 4907 times)

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Offline Spectre771

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Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2020, 06:46:21 AM »
My God, I forgot the Crit tables.  The variety of crit tables to choose from and the variety within the tables themselves.  When I first started playing the GM was getting mad at us because we were reading all the crits for fun and ruining the surprises.

I love the pseudo-realism they add to the game.  It's possible for an outclassed PC to get a really lucky shot in to overcome overwhelming odds.  David and Goliath.  Tell me David didn't roll a 99-E tiny crit!

For the realism and uncertainty they add to the game, it really cemented the tone and flavor of RM for me, from the invisible turtle, to get a spatula, to instant sterilization, to "very much dead."  It was those little bits of comedic relief thrown in that made RM feel like a fun game to play, not just a serious game that was all sticks and stones, black and white.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2020, 09:14:00 AM »
Honestly, I fail to see how and why anyone could say that the critical tables add any kind of realism to the game. If anything, they remove any semblance of realism. Imagine Bruce Lee, arguably the best unarmed combattant in modern times, trying to punch in the face an immobile man. If he were using the RM rules, though he would hit the man anytime due to a very high OB, he'd pretty much never succeed in a bad luck day, whilst, in the real world, even a complete untrained man would be able to successfully punch the man in the face in 100% of the cases, except possibly if totally drunk. Heck, someone pointing a handgun at someone's else torso at a distance of four inches would still miss the torso most of the times (though he would hit, due to range and point blank OB bonuses) said torso, and possibly hit the calf instead!

In fact,
It's possible for an outclassed PC to get a really lucky shot in to overcome overwhelming odds.
...which is very far from being realistic. A complete untrained fighter is just as likely to kill his opponent in one hit than a immortal fighter with millennia years of training, as long as they score the same critical (that max. at E), which absolutely far from being realistic! Fun, absolutely! Realistic, absolutely not! Marksmanship doesn't exist in the RM world, only pure luck.

Quote
David and Goliath.  Tell me David didn't roll a 99-E tiny crit!
Except of course that it was supposed to be impossible, and due to divine intervention.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Hurin

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Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2020, 10:01:45 AM »
Heck, someone pointing a handgun at someone's else torso at a distance of four inches would still miss the torso most of the times (though he would hit, due to range and point blank OB bonuses) said torso, and possibly hit the calf instead!


I'm not disputing your wider point, but this specific outcome issue has now been corrected in RMU. You would definitely hit the torso.
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Offline jdale

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Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2020, 12:33:56 PM »
See this picture?



In the middle of the picture there's an arrow suspended where it split the bamboo flagpole. I hit that from 100 yards away. And I can attest in all honesty that it was pure luck. :) At that distance I can usually get most of my arrows into a 30' circle. Extreme events occur.

That said, in RM it's not just luck. You have to hit first. The severity of the critical influences the likelihood of different results, so if you are very skilled you are more likely to score a more severe critical which increases the chance of a severe outcome. In RMU, an A critical has a 1% chance of being fatal, while an E critical has a 15% chance. We also generally assume the target is moving around and trying not to be hit, so an attack isn't one punch at the face (that might or might not hit) but a flurry of swings of which one might be solid enough to talk about. If the target isn't moving around (e.g. surprise), you might be able to use Ambush to influence the crit roll as well.

Still... I would grant that the criticals are more about providing narratively interesting detail than they are about realistic simulation.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2020, 04:12:01 PM »


In the middle of the picture there's an arrow suspended where it split the bamboo flagpole. I hit that from 100 yards away. And I can attest in all honesty that it was pure luck. :)

OK.  Now I'm supremely impressed!  :worthy:  I would still tell people you meant to do that though.  8)


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Still... I would grant that the criticals are more about providing narratively interesting detail than they are about realistic simulation.


I will amend this to my previous statement.  "The crits also add interesting narrative detail and add lots of color and flavor."

Imagine Bruce Lee, arguably the best unarmed combattant in modern times, trying to punch in the face an immobile man. If he were using the RM rules, though he would hit the man anytime due to a very high OB, he'd pretty much never succeed in a bad luck day...


You're actually looking at this from the opposite direction.  I'm not saying Bruce Lee cannot hit an immobile man and not do extra damage.  My point was that a lesser skilled combatant can get in a lucky shot on a higher skilled combatant.  Bruce Lee, for all his skill did actually get hit from time to time by people who were arguably less skilled than he was.  One of my instructors went to seminars hosted by Dan Inosanto and had plenty of training with him.  He still managed to get solid "finishing" strikes in on Mr. Inosanto.  Likewise I was able to get solid "finishing" strikes in on Christine Bannon (she wasn't married to Don Rodriguez at that time) but she was still ranked in the USA around the time she was triple crown winner for weapons, forms, and fighting.  I clearly not as skilled as she, but I still managed to get several blows in on her because she had never sparred against me and didn't my my style and wasn't familiar with my skill set.

But you do bring up a good point, O.L.F.:  What if Bruce Lee is punching an immobile man and he doesn't want to kill the man.  Isn't it possible he just lands a lucky (or unlucky blow) and accidentally kills him?  Absolutely yes.

The crits allow for the possibility of the lesser skilled to get a killing blow on the over skilled.  If this were not the case, then every higher ranked, or higher OB character would always win every single fight against every lower skilled character every single time and RM will be a really boring RPG to play because it will either be a cake wake for the PC as he levels up or he never levels up because he only faces higher skilled characters.

Yes, I still contend the crit tables add realism to the game, tongue in cheek of course.  I don't recall any news article of someone vibrating another person so vigorously that their foe's brains leaked from the ears or the attacker literally went and grabbed a spatula.  However, there are even the accidental killing crits, which again add realism.  There was one accidental tournament death in France where the victim was kicked in the chest and suffered heart failure from the blow.  The probability of intentionally doing that is astronomical.  Search for any sparring fatalities online you will find hundreds.  It is very possible for a lesser skilled combatant to land a killing blow on a higher skilled combatant, the crit tables allow for this possibility. 

This is the realism I am referring to, not the "aiming at the chest and breaking foe's leg, foe has permanent limp."
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2020, 04:45:29 AM »
I think the best part of RM2 is that it's sort of a tool-kit that you can use to play a variety of different setting themes and power levels (with some experience and leg work). It helped push the boundaries of what I am comfortable GMing today.

RMSS/RMFRP - I really like the race/culture/profession/training package  + talents/flaws layering for character creation. Although chargen was cumbersome you ended up with a good & interesting character. I also liked how spell casting was approached as a skill.

HARP - The scalable spells & the one roll combat resolution. It included the same character creation overview as RMSS too. And the general tone of the game was really good.

RMX - A legitimate single book presentation of RM2 that was very good. Had the game included a Mentalist (instead of an Animist) and a Ranger then IMO the core races & professions would have made the game much more appealing. The strengths were using the MERP style combat system with less tables and condensed critical charts. The expansion material was good too and incorporated many aspects of the previous versions of RM & HARP balanced for RMX.

MERP - IMO MERP is still the strongest presentation of the RM ruleset or family or whatever you want to call it. It used the race/culture/profession + backgrounds character creation. The 6 stats instead of 10 or 8 are enough (and familiar for players) . Spell casting was simple and the balance of it interacts with ME explained. Combat used the linear action resolution system (but that sort of makes sense too) and the condensed charts I mentioned in RMX. Although the game was probably too magical and too gritty to use in ME (for some) I have always liked how well balanced the character progression is & how those characters stack up against the standard monsters and NPCs in the modules. Oh, and the modules are still some of my go to material.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2020, 12:36:59 PM »
You're actually looking at this from the opposite direction.  I'm not saying Bruce Lee cannot hit an immobile man and not do extra damage.  My point was that a lesser skilled combatant can get in a lucky shot on a higher skilled combatant. Bruce Lee, for all his skill did actually get hit from time to time by people who were arguably less skilled than he was.
Sorry to say, but I think you are the one looking at it from the wrong direction. I'm not talking about a lesser skilled combattant possibly be able to fatally hit a more skilled combattant, but about the more skilled combattant inability to accurately hit the lesser skilled combattant. You're talking about the 1% case being made possible whereas I'm talking about the 99% case not happening any longer. In RM, as long as you score a critical 'E', regardless of whether you are the best fighter in the whole universe and with a +10000 OB and scored a 10000 attack roll, or uses a given weapon for the first time in your life with a +0 OB and open-rolled to score the minimal figure to get said critical 'E' (such as 122 vs. AT1 with a broadsword),  you're then just as likely to hit a specific location.
Sorry to say, but, no, this is not realistic.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Hurin

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Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2020, 04:15:38 PM »
How do you handle breaking 150 OLF?
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Offline foilfodder

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Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2020, 02:15:30 PM »
OLF and Hurin, I 'm not a moderator so I can't force you to not post, but please try to keep to the topic of Favorite parts of RM/MERP/HARP rather than your tangent discussion on what is "realistic" or not in a fantasy role playing game.

If you really want you continue the "realism" debate, you could start a new topic.

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2020, 03:36:43 PM »
Ditto
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Offline Thot

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Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2020, 02:28:44 AM »
How do you handle breaking 150 OLF?

Not at all. Anything that's over 150 is just wasted in my games. Works fine, and gives players an incentive to think about defense.

Which I see as another advantage of RM, btw.