Author Topic: Weapons and 'reach'  (Read 4326 times)

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Weapons and 'reach'
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2018, 11:57:57 AM »
Or even give characters the two options:

Option 1: Wait for an appropriate time to swing/shoot, which requires concentration (and thus in mechanical terms, delay your attack).

Option 2: Swing/shoot as normal, but risk hitting your ally. You could handle that risk various ways: e.g. in the way JDale considered in his most recent post; or in ways we've done in the past (e.g. roll a +0 attack on the intervening character); or in some other way.

Offering the two options would thus allow you to either swing right away and take a chance that you might hit an ally, or go more slowly and wait for an opportunity to present itself.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Weapons and 'reach'
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2018, 11:42:47 PM »
That was what I understood from his post.

Nightblade ->--

Online OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Weapons and 'reach'
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2018, 06:10:51 AM »
We discussed about the matter (among many other matters) in this thread, close to one decade ago.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Peter R

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Re: Weapons and 'reach'
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2018, 09:01:49 AM »
We discussed about the matter (among many other matters) in this thread, close to one decade ago.
But isn't rehashing old stories part of the fun of role playing games?
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Spectre771 A couple of weeks ago, I disemboweled one of my PCs with a...

Online OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Weapons and 'reach'
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2018, 09:50:54 AM »
Not when "old" counts in decades?
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Weapons and 'reach'
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2018, 10:45:34 AM »
There were some good ideas in that thread. One that kind of got buried in the stream of discussion was to restrict the Qu bonus to DB according to the general armor type. Adapting that to RMU:
--Heavy armors could allow you to apply 1x your Qu bonus to your DB
--Medium armors could allow you 2x Qu bonus to DB
--Light or no armors allow you 3x Qu bonus to DB

This takes the weight of the armor into account: it is harder to dodge a spear thrust when you are in full plate than if you were entirely unencumbered. But it gets away from the somewhat finicky 'minimum maneuver penalties' we had in previous editions. It would also allow you to split armor from other encumbrance and treat it with this simple, easy rule (for those groups who don't want to use encumbrance rules) in RMU. It would also make some of the medium and light armors very good for characters with high Qu, thus offering a bit more armor choice (rather than simply heavier is better). I just thought that was kind of neat.

I think OLF raised some good points in that thread by outlining his rules for closing (i.e. when you have a shortsword and are trying to get past an opponent's spear to hit him). Currently, in my group, we use a somewhat simpler system of held actions/opportunity attacks and reach rules to mimic this, so that a spear's reach provides an appropriate tactical advantage.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Dalewarrior

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Re: Weapons and 'reach'
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2018, 07:29:22 PM »
Hi Dreven,

These are my house rules for ranged and hexed combat in RM2, and the places I gathered them from.

Ranged combat, RM Companion VI, p. 21-22:         
All melee weapons are classified into 4 broad groups of range:         
4. Pikes attack at a range of 3 hexes, i.e. 3 hexes not counting the hex on which it stands.         
3. Pole-arms, whips, spears, and 2-Handed weapons attack at a range of 2 hexes.         
2. 1-Handed weapons attack at a range of 1 hex.         
1. Fists, martial arts and daggers may attack at a range of 0 hexes, i.e. in the same hex. See Closing.         
         
If a weapon is outside of its base range by 1 hex, it attacks at: -15 OB;         
If a weapon is outside of its base range by 2 hexes, it attacks at: -30 OB;         
If a weapon is outside of its base range by 3 hexes, it attacks at: -45 OB.         
While closing the character loses all non-magical bonuses.         
         
Closing (QU/AG) (Maneuver), Arms Companion, pp. 27 & 71: is getting near enough to a foe (0-1 foot distance) to render his long weapons useless.           
While closing the character loses all non-magical DB bonuses. [Nope, they may use their DBs and parries; to which hardened fighters answer with Feinting.] The Closing skill bonus is           
reduced by the opponent's DB & the weapon's length (see §1). The character must roll 101+ to succeed; with results less than 0, the character receives a Martial Arts          
Strikes fumble, RMC 1, p. 69. If the maneuver fails, the character is stunned. If the Closing check is successful, the PC may shorten the range by 1 hex. [A Shieldbash stun, after          
the Closing Attack, breaks the Closing and re-establishes Combat Range of the weapon used by the Shieldbasher (1 hex). Jumping and Leaping may be used as Complementary skills          
to Closing.]         
         
Initiative Modifier: Longer weapon, when one or both opponents are charging (Closing), +30 to Initiative.         
         
§1. Modifications to the Closing skill roll due to Defender’s Weapon Size:                      
Pike (Pike's length 10'-25'): -60;                                  
Pole Arms (Mounted lance's legth: 9'-15'; Pole Arm's Length: 6'-15'): -50;                     
Spear (Spear's length: 5'-10'): -45;                                 
Missile Weapons: +30;                                  
Weapons over 4 feet (2-H sword's Length: 3.5'-6.5'): -35;                              
Weapons up to 4 feet (Battle-axe's length: 2.5'-4'): -25;                               
Weapons to 3 feet (Broadsword Length: 2'-3.5'): -10;                                  
Weapons above 2 feet (Falchion & Handaxe's length: 2'-3'): +30;                            
Weapons under 2 feet (Dagger's Length: 0.75'-1.5'): +50.            
         
§2. Effects of Close Quarters Combat (CQC), Arms Companion, p. 27, (you're advised to switch to a dagger or a shield bash),         
Attacker gets +50 to Initiative; +30 OB; no QU bonus for DB;             
+30 to Martial Arts & to Animals' OBs.         
Defender cannot parry and may only use 1/2 of the QU stat bonus for the DB;            
Weapons over 3 feet long convey -100 OB *;            
Weapons over 2 feet long convey -50 OB *;           
All spell casters gain an additional ESF penalty of +50.            
* - Defender may use Weapon Brawling with no penalty; Shield Bash may also be used at -40 with a dagger attack, for which there's no penalty; and Melee Scuffle with -25 OB.            
         
§3. Shieldwall effects on the DB, Arms Companion, p. 38,         
Characters fighting in a phalanx or shield wall have other fighters with their shields adjacent to them; this increases their DB (bonuses are not cumulative).         
      Additional shield on      
   1 side   2 sides   above the head
Shield   (additional melee/missile DB); requires a +21 in Restricted Area Combat.   (additional melee/missile DB); requires a +29 in Restricted Area Combat.   (additional melee/missile DB); requires a +55 in Restricted Area Combat.
Target   +5/+2   +10/+5   +15/+10
Normal   +10/+10   +20/+20   +25/+25
Full   +15/+15   +30/+30   +35/+35
Wall   +20/+25   +40/50   +45/+55
Fighting in a phalanx or shield wall requires a Tactics roll + ½ of the Military Organization skill bonus as the complementary skill. Rough or hilly terrain gives -10 to         
-50 penalties. Only the QU bonus and shield bonuses can parry missile fire (Arms & Claw Law, p. 12).         

Offline Majyk

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Re: Weapons and 'reach'
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2018, 04:28:44 AM »
No!
No more extraneously named skills that aren’t named OB/DB and cost even more hard-earned Development Points!  I refuuuuuse...arrrrrgh...
*runs past y’all, screamin’ and Doppler Effect occurs*
 :o :-X

PS: good find for those - nice research!

Online OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Weapons and 'reach'
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2018, 05:35:59 AM »
PS: good find for those - nice research!
I kinda remember a discussion about a similar topic in the RM ML but am too lazy to dig in it. Not that I'm even sure one may still actually dig in the RM ML posts!
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Weapons and 'reach'
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2018, 12:16:14 PM »
I quote OLF from the thread he referenced in his previous reply,
Quote
Everything. Historically, the spear and its variant were used not because they merely gave a chance to strike first (initiative modifiers) but because they allow their user to keep their opponent at range. It's not "I may strike you first" but "you cannot touch while I can hit you". Reach is very important in combat, and the above missile point is just about that.
This is significantly stronger than a simple initiative bonus. It means that skilled long weapon users, if they are not out-skilled, can keep an opponent at bay until the situation changes.

I have not tested what follows in any way, mind you, but it would likely go like this [L uses the longer weapon, S uses the shorter one]
- initiative is rolled, with L getting a bonus as usual. Whoever gains initiative is at preferred range.
- if L has range (and thus initiative) and hits S (inflicts a crit, I'd say), then S cannot close and thus cannot attack. The range is unchanged until the following round.
- if L is at range and does not hit S, then S can try to get close: if their attack hits (inflicts a crit), then they have gained the upper hand and the preferred range is now that of the shorter weapon.
- if S has range (and thus initiative) and hits L, then L cannot fall back and is limited in his own attacks (he can attack because longer weapons can be used at shorter ranges - however, the shaft is typically used instead of the blade). L can attack with an appropriate negative modifier, but will only regain range and initiative if they can score a crit that prevents S from attacking (must parry, stun, pushed back...).
If the S has range but does not hit L, then L is limited in his own attacks as above, but if they hit (any critical), then they regain preferred range.

Basically, this translates into a back-and-forth where both opponents try to gain the advantage / keep it when they have it, with the longer weapon user being favourite to have an initial situational advantage (and also having the benefit of being able to use their weapon, albeit at a penalty, at an unfavourable range).

The reason why I would only consider a crit (any crit) as a "true hit" is because of heavy armour: those wearing heavy armour trade mobility for durability, yet in this case they could not get the benefit of this trade if a "true hit" was any hit result (heavy armours are hit at lower combat result values). With this definition of "true hit", the lightly armoured opponent will have to actively parry and dodge to avoid being hit by the longer weapon (because most hits are crits against light armours) while heavy armour opponents can "take it" and trust their armour to suffer only a bruise if an attack connects, giving them an opening.




Offline Hurin

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Re: Weapons and 'reach'
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2018, 01:11:59 PM »
I agree with what OLF says about the spear's advantage being not just an initiative bonus but the ability to keep an attacker at bay/reach. DnD kind of mimics this with the concept of 'extended reach', which requires attackers to take a '5-foot step' or '5-foot move' (i.e. expend their entire move for the turn to move only 5') because they have to move carefully to close the gap with the spear user. If they don't, the take an opportunity (essentially free) attack from the spear user.

I am still tinkering with this in my houseruled version of RMU, where it costs 1 ap to take a '5-foot step', and movement through an enemy's zone of control without taking a '5-foot step' provokes an opportunity attack. This means that characters trying to close the gap with a spear user have to sacrifice at least 1 ap (or more, if the spear for example were that of a giant and extended longer than 10'), and thus take a minus to their attack, if they don't want to provoke an opportunity attack from the spear user. This mimics the way a spear user is able to try to keep his opponent at bay, or at least force his opponent to take time and focus to close the gap with him.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Online OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Weapons and 'reach'
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2018, 08:32:47 PM »
Just a note: technically, it's easier to get closer than to distance oneself (i.e., to get from "too far" to "at reach" than from "too close" to "at reach"). As much as we make rules about the matter, the easiest way to solve that (and the one historically used) is merely to have a secondary, short-range weapon.
Keep your opponent at bay as much as possible but if he's able to get too close for you to use your long range weapon, don't spend time trying to get out of his reach and inside yours, just drop your long-range weapon and draw your secondary, short-range weapon!

(Yes, I'm insisting on the "secondary" part because I'm laincursed fed up with characters in fantasy stories having a one-handed weapon, such as a sword, as their laincursed primary weapon whereas the sword has always been a laincursed secondary weapon in most, if not all, of history.  :'()
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.