Topic: Weapons and 'reach'

[Dreven1]

I had a player asked me recently if there's any "reach" rules in rolemaster like there are in Pathfinder.

Does anyone have any Homebrew rules or actual core references within Rolemaster standard system or RMFRP?

Any help is most appreciated!!!!

[Majyk]

Besides Initiative and setting a Polearm against a charge, not many reach rules exist.
There was another thread a bit ago talking about ‘em, so a Search here will help, too.

[Hurin]

There are no rules I know of other than the ones Magyk mentioned. I have argued that RMU could use such rules, since how exactly a character in RM is supposed to benefit from and implement such reach has never been entirely clear to me ( and that is one of the great benefits two handed weapons and poplearms enjoy in other systems and should enjoy in RMU). So basically my group just uses the DnD rules for reach and zones of control right now (i.e. opportunity attacks).

[jdale]

In RMU, if you have an attack ready (i.e. have already spent your action points) you could attack as soon as your foe enters your melee range. Longer reach will always go first in that case. After that first engagement there's no difference in initiative though. Pole arms do take half penalties from cover, which means they are well suited from being used from the second rank (since your allies in the first rank provide cover).

I don't think it would be unreasonable in RMSS/RMFRP to automatically give first attack to the longer weapon when there is a significant difference, but I don't think there are any rules for it.

[Hurin]

That does help JDale, and I like the idea about Polearms suffering only half penalties. Table 7-3 on p. 89 just specifies a penalty for 'second rank polearm' (-30). Does that mean that the penalty for 'second rank weapon (non-polearm)' would be -60, or are you just handling penalties in a different way altogether now?

I guess the big question for me is: what constitutes a 'significant difference' in weapon length -- that is, how much longer does your weapon have to be for you to get to resolve your attack first? DnD clarifies this by giving some weapons a property called 'reach', which extends to two hexes rather than the normal one. But if the standard for RMU is 'significant difference' instead, what constitutes a significant difference? A Longspear surely gets it over a Broadsword, since a Longspear is 10' long and a Broadsword is only 3' long. But does the Broadsword get it over a Shortsword, with the difference between them being 3' vs. 2'? How about a Claymore (5') versus a Great Falchion (4.5')?

[jdale]

The RMU rules would just indicate the longer weapon strikes first in that case. It doesn't say anything about the relative difference, it's just that you could attack when the target enters your melee range, and that will happen sooner for the combatant with longer reach (which considers both the weapon length and half their height)...  RMSS doesn't have rules so it's really a GM call, which is why I suggested significant difference in the context of RMSS (not RMU).

The draft RMU rules say attacks from the second rank typically incur a +40 DB bonus for the target (that's half hard cover for 20x2=40), which is halved to +20 for pole arms.

[Hurin]

The RMU rules would just indicate the longer weapon strikes first in that case. It doesn't say anything about the relative difference, it's just that you could attack when the target enters your melee range, and that will happen sooner for the combatant with longer reach (which considers both the weapon length and half their height)...   

Ok, I understand how it works now; thanks!

Since I play on a hex grid, I will probably just houserule it to say that any weapon 5' long or more has a range of two hexes rather than one (adjacent), in the interest of simplicity (I don't want to have to calculate the variable reach of every individual Orc's arm in the middle of a battle). But at least I now know how the RAW work, and that's fine.

The draft RMU rules say attacks from the second rank typically incur a +40 DB bonus for the target (that's half hard cover for 20x2=40), which is halved to +20 for pole arms.

Ok, sounds good.

[Dreven1]

Thank you all for the info! I will look up the rules affecting initiative and longer weapons.  That might just be the simplest solution for us without having to do extensive play-testing first on any house rules.

Have a great Thanksgiving or weekend wherever you might be!
 

[netbat]

I have some house rules on positional bonuses due to elevation that include polearms in the october 2013 guild companion issue that might be useful.

[eskla]

In my games, if combatants are fighting, they are typically a set distance away from one another (say 10 feet or 3 feet).  If one of their weapons are not long enough to cover this distance he cannot make an attack until moving closer.

[Cory Magel]

Seemingly complex answer, but once you figure it out it's pretty easy (like a lot of RM).

Your arm length is roughly half your body height... minus the size of your chest, minus depth, divided by two.

So, just to make it easy (I'm going to use rough/average numbers), let's say a 6' man has a 72" span. Divide by 2 and you have 36"
He has a chest of 46" around.  Let's take 12" off for depth (34) and divide that by 2 (18) has a 18" chest span divided by 2 = 9".
72/2=36" - 18/2=9" all totals 27" reach.

Take a weapon, and just for ease, say you use 6" of the weapon for grip.

So a 36" sword, -6" for grip (I'm not going to worry about 1h vs 2h difference), +27" each gives you a max range of 57" or 4.75 feet to just barely touch an object (if a character is trying to poke an inanimate object that might come up).  Let's take another 3"-9' off just to say you can effectively land a hit that matters on a foe.

So we'll just call it 4 feet in this example.

Basically, if you're using 5" hexes/squares, you can reach the ones next to you because I'm going measure from the center of your hex to the center of theirs.  From there a weapon that is 5 feet longer (9+ feet or more) will give you another hex/square. (I use 5 feet hexes in close combat).

In the end, you figure the well built 6' character has a reach of 15" + weapon length and I believe most RM materials have weapon lengths listed.

If you play around with numbers you'll probably come to the same conclusion a lot of designers do: A character will need to be significantly differently built to have a big enough impact on reach to take it into account in most situations.  In the end I think you can just apply common sense.  1H weapons (and even most 2H) are a 1 hex reach and things like Halbards, Spears, etc, you get one more hex.

But... some day that situation is going to come up where your PC wants to push a button, flip a lever, pop a balloon, etc. 

[Hurin]

In the end I think you can just apply common sense.  1H weapons (and even most 2H) are a 1 hex reach and things like Halbards, Spears, etc, you get one more hex.

I really think that is the easiest and simplest way to do it, though I would give most 2H weapons reach (with the possible exception of the Great Mace, which is only 4' long). You could even make the cutoff increments of 5': all weapons under 5' do not have reach; weapons 5' or longer get reach (extra hex); and there are even a couple of weapons that are 10' or longer (like the Long Spear, which is 10' long), that could get extended reach (two extra hexes range). That is actually pretty accurate: the Macedonian Sarissa and some medieval pikes could attack from quite far away indeed.

[jdale]

Great Falchion is 4.5', and Heavy Flail is 4' (in RMU). But one-handed weapons are all 4' or less (except spear), so if you are using 5' squares/hexes, I think it would be easy enough to say up to 4' reaches one square, up to 9' can reach two, the long spear can reach three. Although net is 10' and large net is 15'....

RMU calculates melee range in the spirit of what Cory said but a little simplified. It's just half your height plus the length of the weapon.

[Hurin]

Great Falchion is 4.5', and Heavy Flail is 4' (in RMU). But one-handed weapons are all 4' or less (except spear), so if you are using 5' squares/hexes, I think it would be easy enough to say up to 4' reaches one square, up to 9' can reach two, the long spear can reach three. Although net is 10' and large net is 15'....

Yes, that sounds good... though the large net sounds perhaps a little excessive. Is that really the length of a fighting-net -- is that based on any real-life weapon? The ones I see in Gladiator films are much smaller, though of course you can't really depend on gladiator films for historical accuracy.

[rdanhenry]

10' is about right for the nets used by retairii in gladiatorial combat.* If one made a weapon for use with both hands, I would expect it to be larger.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retiarius#Arms_and_armour

[Dreven1]

I was more concerned about the rules concerning:
1) Penalties or negatives fighting through a 5' square while occupied?
2) Does the person in the square where the additional person with a reach weapon (such as a spear) always become the target?
3) If a character attacks through a square that has an entity already there and I roll a "0" result, is there a chance the person occupying that square gets hit?
4) Does everyone just resolve combat normally and the occupant of the square that is being fought in simply provide partial "soft" cover?

There are tons of aspects of this when "reach" is introduced with a longer weapon. I do like just simple initiative rules better

[Hurin]

I was more concerned about the rules concerning:
1) Penalties or negatives fighting through a 5' square while occupied?
2) Does the person in the square where the additional person with a reach weapon (such as a spear) always become the target?
3) If a character attacks through a square that has an entity already there and I roll a "0" result, is there a chance the person occupying that square gets hit?
4) Does everyone just resolve combat normally and the occupant of the square that is being fought in simply provide partial "soft" cover?

I think JDale has now answered most of these: combatants filling squares through which attacks are made provide half hard cover (+40). The penalty is halved for polearms. I think that answers your questions 1 and 4. I'm not sure what the answer to your question 3 is, and I'm not sure what your question 2 means.

[jdale]

In general, hitting the wrong target only happens on fumbles. You could apply the hit to the person who was providing cover if the attack missed by an amount less than the cover modifier, but if you do it that way, those will always be glancing blows. The people in the front rank can interfere with your attacks in many ways other than simply getting in the way of your swing. They might simply block you from being able to make a swing at the right time, or inadvertently deflect a thrust (rather than getting struck by it), etc. It might be a little generous but especially with long polearms in many cases it would be hard to hit your ally effectively, they are really too close unless you significantly shift your grip, which isn't going to happen by accident.

With a ranged weapon, my experience (mostly with what we would call a light crossbow) is that it just takes a lot longer to get an opening for a good shot, but I never actually hit an ally....  The rules don't really model the situation where you don't shoot at all, and therefore don't lose the ammunition, but happens a lot.

[Nightblade42]

That sounds like opportunity fire type rules, jDale.  You're loaded, aiming & ready to fire - just waiting for an opening.  If no opening presents itself in the current round, then you might have to wait until the next one to take your shot.  Ammo doesn't get expended until the shot is fired.  Simple enough in my mind.

Nightblade ->--

[Hurin]

I guess you could make attacking through an occupied square require concentration. The effects would be interesting: you could attack with a -50 penalty in the current round (presumably the penalty would be halved for polearms), or wait for an extra round to get an attack at no penalty (as your opening finally arrives).

I'm not sure that would be the best way to do it, but it did seem kind of cool to me to use the existing concentration mechanic to mimic the experience JDale describes above.