Topic: Armor penalties question

[Thom @ ICE]

The only advantage to wearing armor is during combat. Face it - no one wants to wear armor when picking locks, doing acrobatics, etc.  It has no impact during negotiations (unless your GM applies a modifier because the armor has blood smeared on it    )

In combat, why wear armor?  Because it protects from all attacks constantly.  Parrying can only be done against one foe. Shields only work against one area of foes. QU Bonus (and Parry) only apply against those attacks you expect.

If a knight in full armor was in battle he was well protected from all of those extra hits coming his way, but his mobility suffered and once immobilized it was only a matter of time before that killing blow was delivered.

As for talents being too easy to acquire... that's a GM/Player thing.  All talents should be explainable when acquired.  If your character can suddenly do something special you need to be able to explain why, otherwise the GM should be considering blocking that talent acquisition.

[Zhaleskra]

So that means that the character is more skilled with armor than without it? Isn't it odd?

No, it means that even though you're taking the full minimum penalty, your combined stat bonus is high enough that overall you get a bonus instead. Your character is simply Agile and Quick enough that the maneuver penalty no longer matters as much: it is still used as part of the calculation. And again, the Armor skill penalizing its purpose does not make sense.

[Zut]

So that means that the character is more skilled with armor than without it? Isn't it odd?

No, it means that even though you're taking the full minimum penalty, your combined stat bonus is high enough that overall you get a bonus instead. Your character is simply Agile and Quick enough that the maneuver penalty no longer matters as much: it is still used as part of the calculation. And again, the Armor skill penalizing its purpose does not make sense.

But, using my preceding example, it means that I'm applying the Ag bonus twice for some stats (if the MP is positive), since the Armor "skill" uses Ag bonus.

Also, if I can apply positive values to stats using Ag and Qu bonus while wearing armor, what prevents me from boosting the armor "skill" with a few more ranks (wearing the same armor) in order to get a better skill mod?

The way the skill is written, in my view, even though the total armor skill mod would be positive, there is an upper bound to respect (i. e. -6 for soft leather).

Sorry, it looks like I answered my own question  , but I still would like to have other people's view.

[Falenthal]

I agree with Zut.
From what I understood in the rules, the -6 would be your Minimum Penalty. That is, you'll have a -6 or greater penalty, never less.

[Thom @ ICE]

OK, here's how it works....
You develop ranks in Armor and add the ST/AG bonus to get a total Armor Bonus.
Assume that it is 6 ranks and your total ST+AG bonus is +12 = +42 total Armor Bonus.

He has fitted Studded Leather Armor.  The Studded Leather has an MP between -5 and -40.  With a +42 bonus the -40 improves to -5 (the min) and a -5 is applied to all AG and QU maneuvers.  Pickpockets (which uses both AG and QU) receives only a -5 penalty.

Now in battle his fitted Studded Leather armor is badly damaged, but one of his foes is about the right size, so he strips off the Chain Mail Armor from his foe and tries to make it fit as good as he can.  He still has a +42 Armor bonus, but the unfitted Chain Mail has a -20 to -120 MP range. The +42 reduces the -120 to -78.  So now he has a -78 MP on all AG and QU maneuvers.

No - it doesn't reduce the +42 armor bonus to -36, because that would create a continuous downward spiral....

The guy then goes to see an armorer who fits the Chain Mail correctly.  The -120 to -20 range now shifts to -60 to -10, which makes his actual MP -18 (after the +42).

The player decides with his next level up he's going to increase his Armor Skill by 4 ranks for an additional +20, bringing it to +62, but the fitted Chain Mail now has an MP of -10  (which is the min MP regardless of his Armor Skill)


Does that explain it?

[Zut]

Yes! Yes That is what I had in mind, but you put it in a more understandable way! I suggest to use this example in place of the one in the book. 

[Falenthal]

Perfect explanation.
No more words needed.

[Zhaleskra]

Yeah, I realized after I posted it that what I wrote actually didn't make sense. Why would there be an exception for a single skill. Sometimes my fingers are faster than my brain.

[Turbs]

excellent explanation.. one ive been seeking for ages!

[Falenthal]

One more question regarding DB bonus and penalties:

When the Quickness bonus is negative (after applying race modifiers), is it also doubled for DB considerations?

That is, if my character has a final -2 bonus (or malus) to Quickness, then my base DB (before adding armor, shield, etc) is -4? Or is it -2?

Thanks.

[Ecthelion]

Yes, it would be -4, if I understood the rules correctly.

[Turbs]

i would assume its -4 to signify your extra clumsiness and habit of completely screwing up your timing when trying to dodge

[Thom @ ICE]

-4 is correct

[Falenthal]

Thanks to everyone. Shame for the character, I don't think he'll be lasting long 

[Thom @ ICE]

If a -2 differential in his DB is going to have a major impact on his life expectancy, then he wasn't going to live long to begin with.

Give him a rigid leather helmet for +3 to make up for it or consider increasing his armor to the next level if he already has a full suit of it.

[Falenthal]

If a -2 differential in his DB is going to have a major impact on his life expectancy, then he wasn't going to live long to begin with.

You're right. The moment I see a penalty, I begin to think there's no way he can survive. But even a -4 is not a big deal in a percentil game.
I'm too used to the MERP system, where every bonus or penalty was a minimum of +/- 5, and that's a significant amount.