Topic: Bladerunes and casting/imbedding

[Dreven1]

Hello again all!

I have a great group and recently the Arcanist has come into his own.  He now is 6th level and able to case many of the "Bladerunes" spells. ArCo page 63 (and description in page 27).
He is using the 4th level spell called "Spell I" which creates a Size I Bladerune and imbeds a 1st level spell. 
So, he is imbedding 14 spells (Healing II from the Arcane Healing list page 59) into a suite of chain or leather for each other party member.

My questions are :
1) How long does it take to cast? (like an instant 10% or like a normal spell cast of 75%)?

2) Can the trigger event be symantic? (the note in section 8.0 states "the user simply states activation". if so, does the character hold the item? or just be in proximity of it?

3) How long does the Bladerune last? one day? or until cast?

4) How do the other characters activate it? Read runes? or just say the "magic word"?

This is a VERY powerful list and cautious if this is being used properly.    I can forsee some big conflicts in the future if this list is used to buff everyone a week before a big combat.  I love my players  and am for them but I also dont want an abuse of power or rules to offset the balance. 
Thanks!!!
Drev

[yammahoper]

This list goes all the way back to RMCI.  It is EXTREMELY powerful.

Thr triggers to activate the runes can be anything the archmage desires.  Snapping fingers with the hand that holds the blade, or with the off hand, or a word, a motion, an action by the weilder or even a foe.  These rune spells provide access to spells by even those lacking in any magical skill, lore or knowledge.

Runes last until used.  There are higher level spells that act as charges and even higher that make them permenant. 

Since the cat is out of the bag and the list is in the party (and if the archmage survives, arrows with runed fireballs are in your future, boots with haste runes, etc), you have two options; one is assume the players know how the runes are keyed and they always work as designed, or (2) keep track of the keys and wait to activate them via unforseen future circumstance.

Runes will detect as magic.  Certain spells might reveal activation keys and circumstance might activate them when the player doesnt really want it ( a landing spell rune when knoocked down in melee or falling from a horse, as examples).

Good luck, because your PC's are about to become walking arsenals of rune magic.

[Dreven1]

Thanks for the input! I was thinking about creating an optional rule stating that "any rune, whether bladerune or normal rune (besides the "Signs" spells) must be rolled for the rune to be used.  So, a read rune roll would allow or deny it. 
Casters would have an easier time and melee would have a more difficult time with them.
What do you think?
Drev

[jdale]

That is a very powerful and generous interpretation, which I don't think is supported by the rules as written. Unfortunately the rules as written are rather vague about it. However the Arcane Companion does say "activated in the same fashion as a normal rune" and normal runes require a Read Runes maneuver. I cannot find anything that states the activity requirement for this maneuver. Personally I would rule that using a bladerune that contains a spell requires the same activity as casting the stored spell. For other bladerunes I would treat it as an instant spell. This has a number of effects, such as limiting the number that can be cast per round. This makes it fairly potent (since you can stack up a ridiculous number of effects) but not as grossly unbalancing.

(I will note that the Rune Mastery list, SL pg 80, explicitly notes a spell store makes the stored spell instant, whereas Rune has no such indication. I read this as meaning the Rune spell does not become instant.)

The idea that you can designate any trigger seems to be contrary to the spirit of the list as illustrated by the 8th level spell, Complex Rune II: "Any two bladerunes (on the same item) are linked, allowing them to be triggered at the same time." If you could designate an arbitrary trigger like when you say the magic word "activate", you could achieve this simply by picking the same trigger for both bladerunes. So that interpretation would make an 8th level spell a free effect.

It's possible that this interpretation was supported by the rules in RM2, but a lot of RM2 is broken so....

[jdale]

Oh, and also there is a spell list that stores spells with exactly that type of arbitrary triggers. It is "Spell Triggers" on page 58. The rules for the triggers are much more explicit, and much more limiting.

[markc]

 As a balancing factor (House Rule) I might say that the Rune caster can only have his level of rune's in existence at one time.
 Another House Rule might be that runes last for a number of days equal to their level. 



 As per triggers I know that healing spells are often triggered to go off upon unconsciousness, in this case when you sleep you are unconscious so the spells would go off.


MDC

[yammahoper]

the rune must be visible and focused on when activated, so only one may be activated at a time, unless linked, even if they have the same key.  I demand 10% activity per rune and include them in the three actions per melee limit.

you may want to refer to Treasure Companion for the nature of keying items.

Items can only hold a certain number of runes based on surface area.  The last time the list was in the party, I required items enruned needed special preperation/construction.  Rune Blades, Rune Armor, Rune Shields, Rune Stones, Rune Wands, Etc.  Magical items innate aura prevented enrunning abd disrupt the energy weave of rune magic, or so went my logic.  It worked well enough.

Still, the runes are one shot and done.  Let the player have fun with the list.  You as GM can always through in a few small battles were players will use up their runes.  Lets face it, players aint that smart when it comes to trying out a new toy.  Then there are those new monsters, drawn to feed on the arcane and only hurt by rune magic.  After such an encounter, players will show restraint, fearing one more arcane elemental might appear.

An enruning charm canbe introduced into your game.  These magic items have a limited arcane inteligence that cast a specific spell, or a group of spells, to recharge runes.  Essentally sophisticated daily items with charges that can ONLY be used to recharge runes.

What ever is FUN, thats what i recommend.

[Dreven1]

Great replies all!
Here is my issue at the moment, lets play around a bit:

1) Arcanist uses 2 days to "buff" the characters. On average I have 4-5 in the game.
2) Since "Arcane healing - Heal 2-20", Sleep V's, Distractions (-30 to targets activities), Sprain Limb, Minor Pain, etc... are all 1st level spells.
3) A chain shirt can have 10 1st level spells in it.  A two handed sword can have 18, a longsword 10
4) on average the Fighter, Thief, Ranger, Arcanist and Healer could have around 100 or so bladerunes on them at any given time.
5) if these are treated as instants then the melee take -10 to cast instant and 90% to melee and the missile and casters get -10 for instant runes and 90% to prepare another spell or missile/move

This to me is HUGE.  Now, I didnt want to hurt my brain with what happens at 8th level and 13th (when the arcanest can do 2nd through 5th spells) but I can just see everyone launching a Void or Mana bolts at 10' (+35 to chart) as an instant every round before melee.  Even worse some exotic and strange instants which totally imbalance the game. 

I love the idea of this taking up 75% action like a normal spell being cast.  This instant stuff hurts my head. 

I also like the idea of the imbedder only being able to do as many in an item as 2x or 3x their level in any 24h period.

The runes skill to use also might be a factor...

I like something more gradual and not so BLAM 90-100 runes on the party.
One other thought... having a heal 2-20 every round for 28 rounds (Chain shirt and two handed sword) is like having a 28 round regen.  Thats pretty outstanding!

Great input!

[yammahoper]

Sure a chain shirt can have 10 1st level runes, but how much effort to see each one?

Since you don't seem afraid of paper work, the activity required to activate each rune could vary by location on the armor.

Those on the sleeves would be easiest to focus on, the chest and abdomen are a bit more problematic, as are the sholders and back.

This assumes placement is restricted by surface area, which the rules seem to indicate.  The rear runes may indeed only be usable by others while worn, and may be those healing spells.  Obviously, an entire series of tactics and strategies would need to be developed to use them most effectively.

Making all these runes not only takes time, but there is considerable danger too.  UM fumbles are 01-04 with arcane.  You may demand a rune skill check to write the rune and a spell casting check,  During resolving of the skill checks, errors will occur,some perhaps not known, most will be obvious, all mistakes add time.  Then comes the casting, and a fumble WILL happen.  Probably several.  This may have any number of effects, the least of which is adding time to the process.

After a few moderate to derious injuries and/or mishaps, the caster will probably become reticent about mass rune generation.  He will be more concerned with his own needs and at best for the fighters only a few of the most valuable spell runes or weapon runes.  Do not under play the potential danger.  It is the best way to bring these spells under control as the player will self edit over self destructing.

[Kristen Mork]

1) How long does it take to cast? (like an instant 10% or like a normal spell cast of 75%)?

Using a bladerune is, IMHO, a normal 75% action.  Even for normally instantaneous spells.

2) Can the trigger event be symantic? (the note in section 8.0 states "the user simply states activation". if so, does the character hold the item? or just be in proximity of it?

The trigger is a successful Read Runes maneuver.  Of course, the character gets great modifiers: +30 for knowing the realm and the spell, offset by -30 if it's a different realm, possibly +30 if he can cast the spell himself.  And, an initial maneuver can be made long before combat.  Once you understand the rune, you can use it (at 75% action) without another Read Runes maneuver as long as the spell is below your level.

3) How long does the Bladerune last? one day? or until cast?

Until cast, or until a clever opponent casts a Dispel.  Unlike a sheet of Rune Paper, a Bladerune can be dispelled.

4) How do the other characters activate it? Read runes? or just say the "magic word"?

Oops, see above.

Also, I place the following limitations on bladerunes:
1) When a bladerune is placed on an object, it permanently consumes one of the slots on the item.  As a result, bladerunes (in my game) are common only on disposable objects (such as arrows), but these objects tend not to be able to hold more than a single level 1 spell.
2) Magic items can only hold half as many bladerunes as non-magical items.  Thus, a prized magic chain shirt (normally a capacity 10 item) can ever only have 5 bladerune slots.  Use these judiciously!

In terms of mana/void bolts, I doubt the Fighter has much skill in directed spells.  Although, as an instant spell, there's no reason not to try to get lucky.  Further evidence that the spell should not be made instantaneous simply by enruning it.

[Dreven1]

In terms of mana/void bolts, I doubt the Fighter has much skill in directed spells.  Although, as an instant spell, there's no reason not to try to get lucky.  Further evidence that the spell should not be made instantaneous simply by enruning it.

I think this is the largest concern that I have... the bolt is cast at a +0 Directed spell (not a -30) and since the fighter will be in range of 1-10 feet they will get a +35 automatically. 

I do like the idea of 75% cast time, this makes sence...either cast your bolt or attack but not both. 

[DangerMan]

IIRC:

It says treat bladeruned as normal runes. There's no specifics on how much time goes into a read rune maneuver, however there's the general rule that says that if no other % time is given a static maneuver takes 100%. Thus, using bladerunes are 100% activity in our game.

[providence13]

To reiterate what others have said and give my own opinions:

"Activated in the same fashion as a normal rune." Arco pg 27
If you didn't cast the Rune spell. Activation requires a Read Runes Maneuver. This is "Power Maneuver" and pg 18 of SOHK states 'Most Power Maneuvers require 1 minute to complete. -20/round less to a max of -100 for 1 round.." to paraphrase.
However (!) Treasure Co pg 42, says that a Read Runes maneuver is required to read runes.. but remember, Read Runes is required to learn info, but no maneuver is required to activate it.

You could allow them to read the Rune before they need it. Just use the Power Awareness table. Even with a -25 Spectacular Failure, the Rune goes off, which is likely a benefit but -30 to Power Awareness for a month. With 18 Runes on a 2-handed sword, I'll bet they'll fail one.

"declares the activation" ArCo pg 27
Using the Rune is one of their 3 possible actions for the round.

Runes that affect attacks are in "hold" until they have an attack to affect.
The user doesn't hold, as per 50%Act concentration, the spell effect  does the holding. So they could be activated before the players get into combat....

If you allow them to affect magic items, which is RAW (ArCo pg 27), consider the text under the table.
"These numbers should be halved for Modest and Potent items."
What is a Modest item in your game?
Treasure Co pg 52 describes a Minor Effect to be Weapon Effects II.
You could rule that ArCo pg 27 is 1:1 for +5 items and Minor Items are Weapon II or above.

[providence13]

Since Minor items are halved for Rune placement (ArCo pg 27), this would help to limit Blade Runes.
Also "most Potent items will be 25% of this number" (on the table), you now have a range to work with.
+5 = table
+10 = 50% table
+15 = 40% table
+20 = 30% table
+25 = 25% table
Or whatever works for your game.

If they haven't actually played a session with using Blade Runes, you could make the table be max levels of spells allowable on the device.. but the PC's might riot.

[rdanhenry]

Yes, be absolutely strict about making him roll to cast all of those spells. In the first place, dangerous spell failure was what they put in to "balance" Arcane magic. In the second place, either the Arcanist's player will likely get tired of all that rolling or the rest of the party will grow impatient with waiting for all of that rolling, and they'll decide not to try to enrune everything at once. Also, don't forget to start forcing SCSMs the moment he expends 25% of his PPs and keeps going. More rolling and more chances of spell failure!

I wouldn't allow non-instant spells to be made instant, and while the rules could be a bit clearer, making them roll Read Runes to be able to use each rune is an entirely reasonable interpretation and involves even more rolling.

[jdale]

If you want to save time on all those rolls, with a 4% chance of spell failure (which I believe is the minimum for Arcane, 01-04 is always failure), your odds of 0 failures out of 10 tries is 66%, chance of 1 failure is 27.7%, chance of 2 failures is 5%, and 3 failures is 0.6%.

Put another way, roll open-ended. 0-66 everything worked. 67-94 one failure. 95-185 two failures. 186+ three failures.

Not only is that quick, it's also pretty stark if you show it to the player....

[VladD]

This a good methode!

I've seen too many mages go boom because they think overcasting is fun and easy, but they never seem to grasp the failure chances. In effect: Arcane magic goes boom twice as often...

Since people are activating Arcane magical spells, I'd ALSO impose that arcane failure chance on the rune going wrong.

As an aside: since plenty of fighters can't read a rune from a squiggle, it would be plenty fun to have them GUESS which rune to activate next.
Since activating runes usually counts as casting a spell, I'd never allow 2 to be activated in same round, or even a blade rune and another spell.

[providence13]

Two caster in my group now have the Blade Runes List.
The Mystic and Healer have learned it to 3rd lvl. Well see how this plays out.

I don't have Arcane in my game though; haven't seen a need for it.

[rdanhenry]

Two caster in my group now have the Blade Runes List.
The Mystic and Healer have learned it to 3rd lvl. Well see how this plays out.

I don't have Arcane in my game though; haven't seen a need for it.

How are you handling the Bladerunes list then?

[providence13]

If there is an 'Arcane' List that I want to introduce, I normally just assign it a Realm; Ment, Chan, Ess.

Depending on the List, it is Closed, Other Base, etc. This coupled with the Realm allows me to set the difficulty of each List. Some work better than others for my games.

I also have the Power Perception skill +1/PP used in the spell. This can really add up.