Topic: Revised skill caps

[Ashanderai]

A number of people have mentioned the trend towards multi-class PCs

I have recently been toying with the idea of restricting the maximum rank cap to 3+3/profession lvl for all favored categories (stacking where apropriate) and 3 +1/total lvlfor all other skills, the highest always applying. this would give a simple way to provide an advantage to characters who chooose to specialise, although a couple of other tweaks would be needed.

Spell spheres other than universal would count as thier own skill category.

Talents for arcane power etc would be removed, as would eloquence.

Mage classes would gain a +10 to any professional spell/5 levels (7 levels for warrior mage)

Just a quick thought but let me know what ya think...

[NEPHiLiX]

A number of people have mentioned the trend towards multi-class PCs

I have recently been toying with the idea of restricting the maximum rank cap to 3+3/profession lvl for all favored categories (stacking where apropriate) and 3 +1/total lvlfor all other skills, the highest always applying. this would give a simple way to provide an advantage to characters who chooose to specialise, although a couple of other tweaks would be needed.

I share your annoyance with endless multi-classing, but i don't think this mod will help at all. I think that most people already tend not to buy too many ranks in out-of-favored-categories for the very reasons that they cost 4 per rank and those DPs would generally best be spent elsewhere. If a PC is happy to spend 4/rank and max out in the number of ranks (at 3 + 3/lvl) without multiclassing, that's fine by me. But your mod would, IMO, simply further encourage focused spending in class-favorited categories with the intention of switching classes when the majority of skill-bonus returns on DP expenditures became too measly to be concerned with in comparison to gaining proficiency in a whole new category of skills offered by a class-switch.

At that point, you switch quickly to another class with favorited-categories you want to develop next and max your development until the same critical mass is reached, drawing your eye to the next class (and because some favorited-categories will overlap from multiclass to multiclass, you'll still be able to continue pumping DPs into a whole bunch of already highly-developed skills).

Spell spheres other than universal would count as thier own skill category.

Not sure what this means, precisely. How would it be implemented vis-a-vis casters, or is this just a shot at the Rogue?

Talents for arcane power etc would be removed, as would eloquence.

I hate these talents too. Eloquence is definitely a pet peeve: who wouldn't take it and why exactly shouldn't fighters have something similar apply to all their combat skills? Fighters shouldn't have anything like this, and neither should spell-users. Why didn't the HARP-masters just use it the same way RM did? Reduce all casting rounds by 1 to a minimum of 1? That essentially means that your spell-user can negate one -10 penalty to any spell if (s)he's speeding up the casting time. That means negating a single -10 versus the existing, constant(!), +25 to all spell-casting.

Mage classes would gain a +10 to any professional spell/5 levels (7 levels for warrior mage)

If you got rid of Eloquence I'd say absolutely to this mod.

[Thom @ ICE]

I agree with NEPHiLiX.   If your goal is to reduce multiple professions then minimize the impact of the class.  One such option would be to set Favored status not by profession, but instead by stat bonus. 
If Stat Bonus applicable to the skill is <+5 then use DP Cost of 4.   
If Stat Bonus is +5 to +9 use DP Cost of 3. 
If Stat Bonus is +10 or greater use DP Cost of 2.
For each profession assign one category that they get cost of 2 regardless.

Now there's no reason to multi-profession unless your trying to grab the profession bonuses, and in that case it makes sense.

In regards to Spell Spheres, I actually would favor making Arcane Power a required talent in order to cast spells from Universal for everyone. I don't mind people being able to cast spells as a fighter, but it should require significant effort - not just a few investments of DP and suddenly you have access to cast spells.

Eloquence is definitely an over the top talent. For the huge value you get from it this is way undercosted, but it is not the only talent with an odd costing - just the worst one.

Again I agree with NEPHiLiX about the the level bonus if you remove eloguence.

[Maelstrom]

Another option would be to replace multi-classing with dual-classing which is essentially a career change rather than adding an another option in your career path.  When changing professions no more development in the old profession is possible.  Favored category status is removed in favor of the new profession.  Any level related bonuses are kept but no new ones will be gained.

[Ecthelion]

I agree with NEPHiLiX.   If your goal is to reduce multiple professions then minimize the impact of the class.  One such option would be to set Favored status not by profession, but instead by stat bonus. 
If Stat Bonus applicable to the skill is <+5 then use DP Cost of 4.   
If Stat Bonus is +5 to +9 use DP Cost of 3. 
If Stat Bonus is +10 or greater use DP Cost of 2.
For each profession assign one category that they get cost of 2 regardless.

Interestingly this is almost the same approach as I proposed in my HARP without professions article on TGC about 1 1/2 years ago  .

[Thom @ ICE]

I just typed it up off of the top of my head, but I'm sure it got in my head from reading your article when it was written. It's good work, though I haven't used it in a game.

[Mando]

Eloquence is definitely an over the top talent. For the huge value you get from it this is way undercosted, but it is not the only talent with an odd costing - just the worst one.

Without Eloquence, your 1st level spell caster will never cast a spell, even less scale it, and his spells will be easy to resist.

Just rename it : Magical Affinity, Magical Studies, or "born to cast spells", and so it goes.

In our campaign, the pure casters all took Eloquence at first level, and so were missing a good amount of DPs for anything else. Semis took it much later, as it was easier to accept many fumbles and getting resisted often in their case.

[Thom @ ICE]

I have played in games where Eloquence was removed as an option, and I have played in ones where it was only a +10 and limited to 1 sphere.
In both cases casters were viable. Without eloquence casting was nearly always full casting times and base level spells.  In the other casters did scale up, but rarely did they accelerate casting.  The major difference vs the standard core version is that spellcasters were weaker in individual actions - but the results of those actions were still impressive. As indicated, I favor trying to keep more of a balance between casters, semi, and noncasters. In my experience Eloquence just pushed everything towards casting too much for me.

[NEPHiLiX]

Eloquence is definitely an over the top talent. For the huge value you get from it this is way undercosted, but it is not the only talent with an odd costing - just the worst one.

Without Eloquence, your 1st level spell caster will never cast a spell, even less scale it, and his spells will be easy to resist.

That's a little melodramatic. A 1st level caster will have 6 ranks in his best spell, add in his stat bonuses and you're likely looking at +45 bonus. Average roll = 50 +45 = 95 (85 if he casts in one round). That means that the target--let's assume a 1st level Fighter--has to beat a 110 RR or 100 RR (if the casting was sped up). Assuming the Fighter maxed out in Resistance Magic (unlikely) and even assuming a decent In at 1st, the Fighter who has a +55 RR Magic must roll 45-55 to resist the spell. That's a 50/50 chance of being put out of the fight (fear, jolts, sleep, calm, stun cloud, confusion, etc). The Fighter really can't do anything to better his chances, either. He can't parry an RR attack.

If you're talking attack spells, lower level players should fire off weak versions of the elemental attack spell to max crit/stun chance then scale up when their victims are stunned. It's all about tactics! Also, you can't parry elemental balls or bolts so their db is their db (although I allow players to double their shield value against bolts if they full parry and shields aren't supposed to count against elemental ball spells). Dodge works but at the cost of giving up your action that round.

Contrast that with raising all spell-users' OBs by 25 (Eloquence) and your 110 (100 if sped up) becomes a flat 130, requiring an equal level fighter (again, maxed out in RR Magic) to roll a 75 to resist the spell as opposed to a 50/50 chance.

That doesn't seem unbalanced to you?

[DavidKlecker]

I have noticed that you can, if a spell caster, switch to a fighter profession when you are already a high level and then proceed to rank out your combat until you have a rather high weapon attack bonus in just one level. The same could be done vice versa. So I just implied that the rules for Harp in dual classing is that you cannot have more than (3*prof level) + 3.

[Maelstrom]

I have seen house rules address this issue.  A simple cap on ranks gained per level can prevent the multi-class for a level or two, rinse and repeat with another class.  Most cap rules I've seen limit developing skills to 6 or 9 ranks per level.