Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMC/RM2 => Topic started by: Tywyll on February 22, 2022, 05:41:38 AM
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I read a lot about people running 'low magic' worlds and settings, but it doesn't seem like that is the intended default.
Just looking at the low-level scenarios, you kill a few orcs at 1st-5th and walk away with 5-10 magic items. Town guards are level 3, etc.
Personally I have no issue with this, I'm just wondering what other people felt/did. Do you hand out magic items with the regularity of the printed modules (which, knowing the lethality of the game, probably doesn't distort things the way they would in a D&D game)?
I would, but I wonder how other people deal with it.
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We have always started games around lvl 5 ending around 10-12.
Lately though I have been thinking to start at 10 to give casters access to more spells instead of the same old.
My settings have always been high magic with most professions. That goes even for my most recent Dark Sun kickoff using RM2/C.
There are so many professions made for RM2 so bring them all!
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I never start my campaigns at level 1, not because I don't think it's possible, but because of the main plot of the campaigns. Lowest I've done was starting at 4. Highest was starting (and staying) at 20.
Characters are usually already equipped with special/magical items adequate for their level and my own take of the world. I tend to deck NPCs in a similar way (so loot is a thing), but NPCs have items useful for *them*, not necessarily for the PCs, so most of the gear they find, although powerful, is either not suited to their profession or comes with a catch, a price they are not ready to pay. This makes the few items they find (or are given) and are willing to use all the more special.
I certainly do not consider Shadow World (the setting for all my RM campaigns) a "low magic" setting. On the other hand, magic is not necessarily commonplace either, and tends to accumulate in the hands of those with means - the nobles and the wealthy hoard magic users, nations try to enroll as many of them as possible to make their armies more powerful, so the common folk does not see magicians every week - magic is not part of everyday life, even though sorcery is part of history and legend - magic exists, but, for your average farm worker, it's something that happens to "the rich folk".
As a general rule, PCs in my campaign are not motivated by loot or riches - it's nothing more than a side effect of what they are doing. I don't have a problem dropping magic items into their hand. On the other hand, I try to make most magic items stand out, have quirks and a bit of history, so that they can remember who had it before they got it, and what the previous owner probably did with it. Additionally, since I don't ascribe to the "boss fight" either, they often encounter opposition that owns magic items that are sidegrades to what they already have.
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I feel like I don't give out a lot of loot, but it adds up. Mainly bonus items (mostly +10), potions, although some utility items, e.g. a constant item of Edgerunning, a bracelet of Landing, daily items of Shield and Deflection, spell adders. And a couple interesting weapons (+10 short sword that cancels out two levels of size difference, +20 singing scimitar -- naturally the short sword was taken by a paladin and the scimitar by the rogue???). I did recently give them a staff with an emplaced spell list (first 9 levels + 20 PP per day), probably the most valuable thing they've got in terms of sale price, and some laen swords (that will need to be reworked).
The other party has a couple emplaced items with full spell lists (up to 50th level, although they haven't attuned anywhere close to that) but those are quest items that have some hazards associated (e.g. they gave one of the items sentience in order to ask it questions and it summoned something far out of their league) and I have specific plans for them. Aside from that, they've got a Shield item, a +10 flail with knockback (5' per crit severity), a multiform +10 staff/bow/spear with a few daily spells, +20 spear (nominally singing but it lost its music), folding composite bow, a ring that protects against a particular type of detection, a couple of pet constructs, and no doubt a few things I'm not thinking of.
These are 8th level characters. They mainly started with a couple of +5 bonus items.
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I would consider the default RM setting (Shadow World) to be quite 'high magic'. It definitely is not low magic.
I find the printed modules a bit too erratic in their loot for me to follow them closely. Some of the old Middle Earth modules were insane -- we recently had a campaign in ME and at level 3 or so we got stuff like armor that protected like plate but encumbered like cloth, and had a DB+ to boot. Though it was great in a sense, it also kind of wrecked the game's action economy (the players who got the loot were extremely powerful and they never bothered with any other armor for the rest of the campaign).
I usually start at level 1 and get to around level 10 or so (though this campaign we are starting at 1 and hoping to get higher).
Levels 1-4 characters are mostly getting +5 gear (I'm also mixing it up and giving +3 or +7 gear too, to allow for even finer gradations -- something we forget we can do in Rolemaster!), maybe spell adders, some potions and scrolls.
Levels 5-9 they are getting +10 items, maybe the odd +15, their first level of spell multipliers, some Daily items, maybe the odd constant item.
Levels 10+ is where I start giving regular +15 items, higher level multipliers, artifact-level stuff.
That's just me, of course, but if that helps, that's what I do.
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Well, you can expect some pretty wild loot in Middle-Earth. I mean, look at what Bilbo picked up in his first adventure: excellent magical blade, excellent magical armor, most powerful ring in the world, one of the most valuable jewels in the world (though he didn't keep that). And he wasn't even min-maxing!
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Well, you can expect some pretty wild loot in Middle-Earth. I mean, look at what Bilbo picked up in his first adventure: excellent magical blade, excellent magical armor, most powerful ring in the world, one of the most valuable jewels in the world (though he didn't keep that). And he wasn't even min-maxing!
Yeah, and look what Frodo got during his own adventures. Wild loot, indeed :)
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In MMO speak, Bilbo min-maxxed then twinked out his alt. :D
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I've always started characters at 1st level. Usually real life led to groups dissolving when characters were approaching 10th level. My current group is now hitting 11th level, but we started in 2017. They gained levels faster early on, and this last level comes after 9 months playing every other week.
My campaign world is a mix of low and medium magic, with geography largely separating the two. The majority of play occurs in the low-magic places. There was a cataclysm about 3000 years ago, The Wizards' Plague, where anyone who had so much as used a wand or rune died, destroying all magical knowledge. This allows me to have pre-Plague artifacts as rewards, items more powerful than almost anyone can now make, and items that don't conform to normal rules for making them. The party of 5 is currently walking around with 3 of these items. They're not god-level artifacts, but they're very powerful. And they all require will-rolls to control - one item has been with the party for several levels, but only one PC has managed to attune to more than 1 of its powers.
Adding in the time it takes to make items in RM, my players have only twice taken that path.
Most of their treasure takes the form of raw materials or valuable items that they can exchange for things they want. Anything too amazing or rare is unlikely to find a buyer.
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We start at level 1. The shortest campaign we've played we ended up around level 8 or so. Level 12 is more typical and I have had a character hit level 17.
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I started both my groups at 2nd level, both now at 8th. Not sure how high they will go. One is nearly at the climax of the main plot arc but I have set things up for the next arc already.
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I usually poll the players. In some games they want to start out powerful and I toss powerful enemies at them but if they want to face lower levels of challenge, I allow them to start at lower levels.
My last group wanted no role-playing at all. Fine. It was one combat scenario after another, tied together with a thin storyline. I've had groups in the past who very much enjoyed the role playing aspect and I'd base campaigns on Roman plays by Plautus, such as Miles Gloriosus or comedies by Aristophanes, and have NPCs based on Woody Allen or Sylvester Stallone to deal with.
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For years and years we always started players at level 5 to give the PCs a lot of decent skills to pull from and to give the spell users access to good spell lists. Since RM2 is pretty deadly, level 5 gave PCs decent HP to survive a bit longer and gave GMs a lot more baddies to choose from.
Lately, all the new campaigns we start and the new PCs are all level 1. What I discovered by doing this is manifold.
- at level 5, the XP requirement jumps to 20K to level up. If players discover a minor flaw or a skill they wished they had, they have to wait quite a bit to level up just to buy 1 or 2 ranks, and even at that, the skill bonus still won't be great.
- starting at level 5, they're basically 'grown ups' going out into the wild with the exact same kit and armaments that the level 1 PCs are starting with... except they are now facing level 5 (or worse) baddies, whereas the level 1 PCs are facing level 1 baddies. The PCs don't get "GM gifts" and magical items at creation because they are level 5 and should have those things by now. They chose to start adventuring at level 5 so they have the kit that fledgling adventurers would have. (That's what Background Options are for; Magic Items Table). It doesn't matter how old or young you are... your first adventure is still going to be your first adventure. Just like a colonoscopy!
- if I want to give the party magic weapons and armour, they usually have to take them from the baddies they just defeated, which of course means they had to fight AGAINST those said magic items, as fledgling adventurers they usually don't have a lot of magic items to deal with those wielded by the baddies.
- starting out at level 1, the PCs level up rather quickly due to the XP bonuses for "first time this-and-that." It usually takes about 2-3 short sessions to go up 1 level.
- the players have a blast playing level 1 PCs, something I NEVER expected would happen. I always assumed they would want the stronger PCs, more spell lists, more HP, lots of skills. It turns out, they love seeing the consequences of low skill rolls, the challenge of making due with low skills, weighing the odds of success vs. failure, how can they make the most of the few skills they do have. They are more creative and cautious with their choices. There are no "level 1 tanks" LOL The improvisation that comes about when the Stalk/Hide roll is a 17 or the Lie Perception roll is a 12!
- the players get to develop their PCs by adding the skills they need, boosting skills they have, maybe even changing the direction they were originally developing and abandoning skills they no longer like. At level 5, all those points are already dumped into a skill they just don't use and adding a new skills is a risk because they have +10 (plus stat bonus) for their new skill at level 6.
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I usually have my players start at level 5.
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- the players have a blast playing level 1 PCs, something I NEVER expected would happen.
Those are some of the reasons I always start at level 1. I actually prefer level 1 DnD to higher level DnD, because characters are new and you get to learn the basics, but everything is also more threatening, leading to more cautious, careful, thoughtful play. Plus if you are just learning the system, there aren't as many moving parts or skills to worry about; you just have the basics.
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Those are some of the reasons I always start at level 1. I actually prefer level 1 DnD to higher level DnD, because characters are new and you get to learn the basics, but everything is also more threatening, leading to more cautious, careful, thoughtful play. Plus if you are just learning the system, there aren't as many moving parts or skills to worry about; you just have the basics.
True. On the other hand, there are so many things you cannot play at level 1.
Level 1 is good when you want to play characters who have no experience. Fresh from apprenticeship, literally speaking. The stereotypical young adult eager to see the world and imprint their mark on it, but with no idea what that means except tales from their elders or passing travellers.
But if you want to play characters with years, decades, or even centuries of experience, it just doesn't cut it.
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I think low starting levels are a good idea if your players are unfamiliar with the rules, possibly if they are unfamiliar with the setting. It gives them more room to adjust as they grow, and they can learn things in smaller pieces. (Especially casters, a 5th level character starts with a lot of spells to learn how to use.)
If your players are all old pros, especially with you as GM, they don't need that. So do what's fun for your group.
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I think low starting levels are a good idea if your players are unfamiliar with the rules, possibly if they are unfamiliar with the setting. It gives them more room to adjust as they grow, and they can learn things in smaller pieces. (Especially casters, a 5th level character starts with a lot of spells to learn how to use.)
I agree with that - even if level 1 might be a bit of a stretch anyways, but level 1-3 is generally good for beginners. My very first RM campaign (newbie GM, newbie players) indeed started at level 1, and so did my second one (and boars were mighty opponents :D).
But I've GMed and played Rolemaster or variants since 1986... the novelty wore off. And all my players are in the same age and experience bracket - not necessarily with Rolemaster, but with enough multi-system experience that they can adapt quickly, especially when there are RM veterans in the group.
It's also a question of style. I'm a rules-light RM GM - I stripped the rules down to what I needed and simply consigned the rest to the pits of history, so there is less of a need to learn the intricacies of multiple subsystems. The biggest hurdle is generally the number of spells available to spell users, but for people used to play high-level D&D or flexible magic systems, this is not really an issue.
Additionally, I usually spend a few months preparing a campaign with the players - background solo or two-player plays, slices of life before the campaign begins. This helps them growing into their character, meeting people... and getting an handle on the technical aspects. For my last campaign (level 20 from beginning to end), I spent almost a year in pre-campaign play. The campaign itself lasted almost 5 years and 100 sessions. Pre-campaign time was not wasted time.
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On the number of spells issue, I would note that in comparison to RM2 and to a lesser extent RMSS, RMU casters can start the game with way more usable spells and significantly more PP to cast them. An RM2 caster for example might start the game with literally 1 level 1 spell (on a list with 9 other spells that would take him three rounds to cast at least) and 2 power points, whereas an RMU caster can start with literally a dozen spells, which he can cast every round, and 20 or more power points to cast them with. So first level is far more viable for casters in RMU than in RM2.
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On the number of spells issue, I would note that in comparison to RM2 and to a lesser extent RMSS, RMU casters can start the game with way more usable spells and significantly more PP to cast them. An RM2 caster for example might start the game with literally 1 level 1 spell (on a list with 9 other spells that would take him three rounds to cast at least) and 2 power points, whereas an RMU caster can start with literally a dozen spells, which he can cast every round, and 20 or more power points to cast them with. So first level is far more viable for casters in RMU than in RM2.
I know - even though there is a bit of exaggeration in your RM2 status. As far as I remember, RM2 did not use preassigned cultural ranks for adolescence, which means you had two full developments to complete for level 1. As a pure or hybrid spell user, you got at least 2 spell lists. Granted, this meant at least 20 DPs spent per development (and probably at least 21, in order to get the chance of a second spell list with the added stat bonus on the roll). But still, it was possible. PP, on the other hand, were clearly... lacking.
RMSS allowed more spells at first level - because of changes in the list development, and more power points (more PP mostly because of the development scale and because the stat bonus was included in PP total).
But that's not the main point - the main point is, I did not want to GM campaigns for young adults fresh out of their neighbourhood. I wanted to GM campaigns where the characters had already faced adversity and darkness (both without and within) at the start of the campaign. In short, I wanted *experienced* characters. Level 1 is about as low on the totem pole as you can get - I mean, even your average town guard is higher level.
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I would, but I wonder how other people deal with it.
We're using Middle Earth as game world and I have many of the old modules at home for inspiration. We're always starting the PCs at 1st level and usually retire them around levels 13-15. We're not handing out as many magical items as I remember from the modules. But we do hand out a few magical items. And we do use the Treasure Codes from Creatures & Monsters and roll the treasures on the appropriate tables. So magical items can be found.
The PCs of our current group are now 10th level, all have +15 non-magical armor and shields, all have a +20 non-magical or +15 magical weapon, two of four have a *2 Multiplier item, and also two of four have one or two lower level daily items. And they are now on their way to Khazad Dum to sell some loot they have made and to buy new and improved gear. Perhaps this gives an impression of the item power level.
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Our path was a little different one. We started by playing RuneQuest in Glorantha setting. After 10 years of playing we hit the roof of that system when the characters were masters in every significant skill there was. We converted the characters to Rolemaster, deciding to start from level 15 which felt fine. There was a plenty of challenge in the system and the world felt new. Now, after 20 years of gaming with RM2 the levels are around 65-78 and there's still a lot of challenge left in the system. I really love the scalability of RM system.