Topic: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?

[giulio.trimarco]

I play often in campaigns were magi can dress whatever they want.
This were true even while I played RMSS.

What will keep them at bay from conquering the world (and more importantly the game session) are two factors:

1) Spell points
2) Spell availability

While now I use different systems from RM, I adopted this solutions for RMSS.

First spells must be acquired from some source (or researched). The concept of list freely developed is a bit too permissive (in these kind of campaigns).
Your player could find (buy, ... ) a book or a piece of parchment, with one or more spell level written.
They need time to study every spell (not only pay DP), and this is a limiting factor.
Spell list will have "hole" in spell level as the GM sees appropriate.

Spell points limitations. Reducing the spell points (and recovery rate) will reduce the general power of the magi, leaving them powerful but not dominating. RMC, to me, is more approriate to you system, thank to the lower PP rate.
Since many defensive spells can be cast, armor could be replaced.

I once had a player that created an "Magi's Armor Law" spell list, with many spells that will duplicate (or surpas) the real-world counterpart.
Nothing too difficult to do.

More specific of your campaign...
What I'll do is to leave magi incapable of generating spell points by themselves.
They are able tough of absorbing PP equal to their PP at that level. For example a 10 level mage with EM 100 can absorb up to 30 PP from the armor.
The armor itlsef needs recharging, capable of storing up to X PP (say 60). To recharge an armor you could need a ritual from the mage, that will need component materials and one or two hours.

These are only ideas.

[markc]

 There is also a RMC profession in the Combat Companion that as a spell list that modifies spell casting penalties for wearing armor. You should check it out if you do not have it. Yes it is for RMC but IMO it should be adaptable for RMSS/FRP with only little to no work.
MDC

[providence13]

IMO
Magic armors could lessen the penalties. Or have armors made from specific realms of magic work better w/ that realm and not so well against others.

For Channeling, you could reduce the penalties of Ranger/nature types for wearing nature type armors; wood, leathers etc. Or, perhaps a god of war allows less of a penalty for certain armors and/or easier to learn Transcend Armor.

For Mage-types, having hands free, for movement/aura focusing (whatever) helps spell casting, so being encumbered should hurt it. Always thought Mages should have a bonus to dancing (and Advanced Math!)

IIRC, Mentallism was only hampered by head covering; maybe something similar to mages above- hurts focus/blocks "signals".

On a wearing armor/normal activity related note: A friend of mine was wearing his armor while driving (it apparently took a lot of time to don(?) and remove.) His armor locked up and he drove into a telephone pole.
Very funny after the fact. He did think the armor helped protect him in the crash! Don't wear armor and drive!

[dutch206]

here's an idea:  Let spellcasters wear armor, and let arms users develop "armored adrenal defense" (I can't remember which Companion that was in).  You can run a "supers" campaign.

[Ido Tamir]

I simply use corruption points - magic IMO is something dangerous and should be used carefully (much like using nuclear energy, or being a GM - the sense of power is wonderful, but it might get to your head  ).

So, let the mages wear whatever they want. If they use their spells for the wrong reasons (with you as the GM to decide what are wrong reasons), let them face the consequences (with you as the GM to decide what the consequences. Did I mention that being a GM gives a great sense of power?  )

Ido

[thrud]

LOL, summoning daemons is like tuning a turbo engine. Everything is going great and you keep cranking it up then suddenly everything goes horribly wrong.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Um... what does ESF mean?

[providence13]

You could also use "overcasting"; spending more points than required to offset the penalties.
This would make the magic spell more noisy- others could get a bonus to power perception and should likely hurt more if you mess it up!

Hey, maybe that's why all those PP X#'s are floating around in most games... They're for people wearing armor.

[Arioch]

More specific of your campaign...
What I'll do is to leave magi incapable of generating spell points by themselves.
They are able tough of absorbing PP equal to their PP at that level. For example a 10 level mage with EM 100 can absorb up to 30 PP from the armor.
The armor itlsef needs recharging, capable of storing up to X PP (say 60). To recharge an armor you could need a ritual from the mage, that will need component materials and one or two hours.

These are only ideas.

This could be a good idea!

[dutch206]

Um... what does ESF mean?

ESF = Extrordinary Spell Failure

[pastaav]

Um... what does ESF mean?

RM2 didn't have any overcasting rules at the core...there was an option using the acronym ESF to allow such. I don't really remember the way it works, but I think I recall that it is very different from overcasting in RMSS/RMFRP.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Um... what does ESF mean?

RM2 didn't have any overcasting rules at the core...there was an option using the acronym ESF to allow such. I don't really remember the way it works, but I think I recall that it is very different from overcasting in RMSS/RMFRP.

Actually, much of the RMSS/FRP overcasting rules were the original ESF options (it wasn't one single option, but several that all fell under the single heading of "Extraordinary Spell Failure". It is what allowed casting a spell above one's level, casting spells while wearing armor, without the right number of hands free, without speaking, etc...

IN RM2, if you used the ESF rules, you totaled up the mods. Then made a roll. If you rolled above the mod total, you could cast the spell normally (and still fail casting the spell normally). If you did not, then you tripled the mods and rolled on the spell failure table.

In RMC, the mods are added to the 01-02 fumble range of casting a spell. And if you fail in casting, 3x the mod is added to the failure roll (i.e. RMC simplified it into a single roll rather than 2 rolls).

[Fidoric]

That is what I had in mind. A single roll with the ESF modifiers directly applied to the spell casting maneuver. To resolve the spell failure, you can add between once and three times the ESF modifiers, making it more or less dangerous to cast in armor.

[chukoliang]

Oh one of my Gm's refused the Healer class to be in the game (for a while) because of caster/armor abuse. I created a healer and was laughed at for getting a talent to help me develop my weapon skill and also to help me develop my armor (for a Healer). Of course I developed heavy armor and a long sword/shield. And everyone laughed at my guy (as it took me many levels before I could even wear heavy armor). I was also laughed at for developing the closed Cleric list Life Mastery (so I could rez dead people). This tied up alot of development points.

However, around lvl 12, my healer was a monster. Being a Channeler he was able to use transend armor and he was quite able to defend himself and heal everyone around himself. While the rest of my group was dead/out, the "weak mocked" Healer defeated the enemy, and then healed up the group...of course being a healer he had to rest in a tent for a week after as he laid there healing himself (I had to take on alot of their wounds to quickly and efficently heal them, so they wouldn't die of their wounds after I rezed them).

Being Healers are Channeling/Mentalism they seem built to skirt the armor rules. Transcend armor and being able to cast in metal armor as long as you don't wear a helmet helps alot. Getting a mentalist "helm" or head band saves from the crits.

But if the rules were ignored it could be pretty ugly. A warrior could have a real tough time taking out a Essence user wearing full plate and ignoring the armor penalties put on his casting (but if casters can ignore armor penalties for casting, can Warrior types Ignore casting limits/rules?). Or imagine an Arcanist ignoring those rules. But remember the ruleset is set so that an essence user could wear heavy armor if he was willing to develop the skills and cast with the penalties. This is Rolemaster you can develop all skills (at a cost), no matter what class you are. 

I personally feel the ruleset is very heavy handed on Channelers though. Firstly their professional lists may not have any heals in them (this means a cleric has to develop 12 list to remain basic as Rolemaster requires alot of list to truly heal). On top of that Armor Development cost are very heavy. And then they have to develop transend armor which is a restricted skill (which seems counter intuitive since your god gives you the spells). Healers don't get many instaneous cast heals spells (which can be really ugly for the group).

On top of that... The Channeling Companion has all kinds of rules to limit (take healers power points away on the GM's you've been a bad healer whim). Oddly enough these rules don't seem to affect Animist, Rangers as much (as they are only worried about the forest in most GM's mind). Then if you add in Warlocks and the Faith Breaker list and it becomes a how many days will my healer be without power points, or i'm instantly corrupted and now hated and hunted down by my own faith kind of situation. I don't see other caster types having to deal with this kind of high development cost/ instant loss of power situation.

Other casters may not have armor, but they are not as vulnerable to instantly losing their power points or their spells. The anticipations list can be just as powerful as having armor. When used with armor it can be crazy. Ignoring the Armor penalties on top of this seems it would really put the rest of the game (especially healing) out of whack.

But as many have stated Mentalist can already cast with armor (without much penalty if any) as long as they are not wearing a helmet. Channelers can also wear Armor and cast through the Transend armor skill (I.M.O. needs to be fixed, it's way to costly). And if an Essence/Arcanist type is willing to do it, they can just spend the development points, stay the course and cast with said penalty. It is part of the rules. So essentially all players(including warriors with a mind to do it) can deveolp casting ability and armor wearing ability.

Bottom line to me though is the restrictions of Essence/Arcanist being affected by metal armor seems logical as they have the most powerful "attack" list. Channelers have to maintain a good relationship with their god to be able to "channel" through armor or get any spells. And Mentalist have to cast without a helmet (I did it with a warrior of mentalism realm, died from a crit after doing the same to a tougher foe) so it is not without it's dangers.

So in my mind Armor Penalties for casters need to be there. To me it is a balancing issue, and undoing it could really shift the balance of power heavily in the favor of the casters types. Especially Essence users.

[yammahoper]

It might be fun to play a game in a setting were everybody is a spell user and throw out armor restrictions for spell casting.  A world were sword and scorcery and meal and wheel of all.